Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Wickedtemp » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:34 pm

When it's boiled down, it really is just attitude and communication, that's my perspective on it, anyway, so from there it does seem like it could be resolved with simply "We'll make efforts to be less needlessly-abrasive", since that in and of itself would go a long way in keeping things chill.

I can't really write too much since I'm currently on a broken phone screen. Most of what needed to be said has already been mentioned by previous posts, I think, except for examples of transparency and where its lacking, which I don't have much to offer since its not something I've thought over, I'm not too sure there have been too many examples where it's been a problem, but I could have just as easily been blind to them. And for what its worth, the all-caps quotes weren't from this argument, they were paraphrased tidbits from the discord convo.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Aces » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:39 pm

Wickedtemp wrote:When it's boiled down, it really is just attitude and communication, that's my perspective on it, anyway, so from there it does seem like it could be resolved with simply "We'll make efforts to be less needlessly-abrasive", since that in and of itself would go a long way in keeping things chill.

I can't really write too much since I'm currently on a broken phone screen. Most of what needed to be said has already been mentioned by previous posts, I think, except for examples of transparency and where its lacking, which I don't have much to offer since its not something I've thought over, I'm not too sure there have been too many examples where it's been a problem, but I could have just as easily been blind to them. And for what its worth, the all-caps quotes weren't from this argument, they were paraphrased tidbits from the discord convo.


Okay, that's a lot more we can work with. I appreciate it. I mean I'm still not totally satisfied but because this isn't getting blasted along at a million miles a minute by a chatroom I can respond to this more calmly instead of being rushed to reply. Rushing creates impatience, and impatience creates anger.

Not to say I can't try to mitigate that, nor should I not be more weary of myself doing it, but I'd also ask that you try to be more conscious of what you are saying before you're saying it. After all, if I'm supposed to be doing that, I would hope other people try to make that effort as well. If one of us fail should, the other one can point at our progress and stand taller than the other.

For the record, I don't want there being any false ideas that I am trying to deny my own use of snark. Reflecting on my earlier posts, there's definitely snark, especially in that tl;dr version. I should probably stop that.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby DeviliciousTreat » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:50 am

Aces wrote:That said, perhaps my own temper still needs to be more in check regardless. My frustration was given as a reason. My viewing your lack of qualification was not meant as a means of saying "I'm not going to listen to you" but more to implore you to do exactly what you have done, which is keep drilling the point you feel strongly about because you know there is a long term end goal that benefits the community's health. I admire that, even if I don't agree with everything you say.


Thank you, I appreciate it. I didn't expect you to agree with everything I've said, but I'm glad that there is at least an acknowledgment that improvements can be made.

Aces wrote:It looks to me like you claimed exactly what I said you claimed.

Can you possibly tell me what I misunderstood here if that is not the case? Because I read it as you saying that admins are just blaming everyone else instead of admitting their own faults. Perhaps never isn't correct for me to say, but you get my point.


It's a difference in quantity, rather than quality (some, rather than all), though to me that's a pretty big difference, really. If I thought that this applied to all admins, then I wouldn't have bothered joining in on this discussion in the first place; there's no saving that kind of sinking ship. I think that the attitude I mentioned there is displayed only by a minority of the admins, but I don't think it should be tolerated in any admin.

Perhaps it was a bit hyperbolic, though, and it may not be fair to say that that's what that minority does all of the time, but from what I've seen in this thread so far, it certainly seems to me like that's their default position, which is a shame to see.

Aces wrote:So I have read the rest of this and it basically amounts to being upset at me and Scree somewhat for responding negatively to the community. In context, you are probably referring to Discord conversations in particular and how those seem to always devolve into shit shows wherein one of the staff comes in and just shuts it down when people are being polite to each other.

I don't particularly have much else to say other than two points.
One is that they really aren't being polite to each other and that's usually why I get called.
Two is an admission that, okay, maybe you have a point in that I can try being a little more chill about it.

That said, I am also curious how the interaction to follow is about to go. You said that it is okay for me to criticize people and their bad behavior so let's see what happens when I do that to one of our usual offenders. Do you think my response to them was unfair in any way?


More or less, though my core issue is that I think that the way some of the admins have been responding to shit shows they felt needed to be shut down really just ends up stirring up the shit show even more, or starting a shit show where there wasn't one before. It's not about hurt feelings, it's about the fact that this kind of response doesn't fix the issue it's supposed to fix and comes with the collateral damage of discouraging civil and polite conversation in times future. I certainly don't think that the admin response in the Discord discussion that spawned this improved the situation at all and I think it would be unreasonable to say otherwise.

If you believed that the discussion was uncivil before you came into it then, well, I think that's not an unreasonable opinion, but I thought that there wasn't any disrespectful behaviour going on yet, merely a rather tense discussion. We can agree to differ on that point and I think it would be rather silly to argue about it at length, since that's not the crux of the argument here, really.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say that WickedTemp could have expressed themselves better there, but, if I'm honest, that is what I have felt the admins were implying at the time and at points in this thread, even if I may not have put it into those words exactly. That may not have been how you wanted to come off, but that is how you've come off at times.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby DeviliciousTreat » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:50 am

Scree wrote:Sebbe mentioned transparency, which I believe is one of the issues that led to the discord arguments that sparked this, the rest mentions some things that probably happened at some point but isn't specific enough for me to actually address, so I won't.

Are there any specific issues that you would like us to be more transparent about? Any admin decisions that you disagree with, or just want to know how we arrived at the decision we did? I'm all ears. Seriously, if there was a rule or policy change and you want to know why it was done that way, especially if it's something that might seem unintuitive, ask away. If you come out swinging straight away with "this is a stupid fucking idea" in public then that'll trigger the instinctive "well fuck you then" reaction, especially if the chat then starts moving too fast for me to explain the decision - or worse, if the decision IS explained and people shove it up off the screen. If people make it impossible for us to give a detailed answer, then you won't get one.

That's something the forum is great for, by the way, as it gives a place for you to ask a question and have us give an answer without it getting buried under the peanut gallery.


If you take issue with people coming to you with "this is a stupid fucking idea" then I suggest not coming to other people with that yourself. That's very much how you come off in discussions. Admin behaviour sets the standard for what is considered acceptable in a community, and if that behaviour is bad behaviour, then bad behaviour like what you've just described will be seen as acceptable. That's why it's important that admins hold themselves to a higher standard.

If you do want people to use the forum to discuss new changes, then might I suggest the following:

    1. Whenever a new change/decision/etc. is made, make a forum topic explaining the change and the rationale behind it and open it up to comments/questions.
    2. When people ask about said change in Discord, direct them to said forum topic to do whatever it is they have to do there.
    3. Don't close threads even after the discussion has seemingly run its course, instead, allow it to be open for as long as people have comments/questions.

This isn't a perfect solution, of course, and likely won't get people over to the forum outside those specific instances, but I think that there's a good chance more people would use the forum if this was the standard way of doing things. Obviously, it would require more admin involvement in moderating the forum, but I think that's a perfectly reasonable price for getting people to use the forum in the first place.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby VerySoft » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:50 am

So, I've read a few of the larger posts and kind of skimmed the later ones where you're more replying specifically to one another, so forgive me if I miss any points, and I am going to jump around a bit.

But If I can just summarize what I think is largely gotten at here.

Sometimes admins fly into a conversation and say inflammatory things that make people upset, unsettled, or unhappy.

This is an unavoidable truth, that is going to happen no matter how careful we are. Perhaps we could be more careful at times.

A joke about it being easier to ban someone from the discord than it is to ban them from the forums, as an example, could easily be interpreted by people who are already upset as a threat, and could inflame the situation more.

And sometimes all it really takes is a genuine apology with no frills or passive aggressiveness to cool things down. A simple, 'oh shit, my bad guys, I'll do better' with no extra bullshit when you've messed up, can go a long way. This can be difficult to give sometimes, but sometimes you gotta take your licks and accept responsibility. And I do emphasize the genuine part.

AND SOMETIMES the chat's gonna say some shit that makes you goddamned pissed to the moon. But going in ans screaming about it is almost never going to actually resolve whatever the issue is, it's just going to make you look like an ass to all parties involved. I prefer the forums because I am usually pretty thorough in my points, and don't do too well in super short form. And we're people, the admins. We get mad. And sometimes we'll react poorly because of what's been said, especially when we're being defensive over whatever the present topic is. But it can be valuable to recognize when that has happened, and take a moment to temper the reply, or analyze if there's something valuable to be gained from what they're saying, and acknowledge that.

Recognizing in the moment that a person is making a point you've seen a zillion times before, is a good opportunity to crack a joke and explain how we've tried that before, rather than flying in and essentially telling people off for bringing the same point up is important. I know we have different styles, but one can't assume that a community as old and large as ours is going to have everyone on the same page for everything. Approaching benign things positively in general is a lot more likely to get people on board with what you're saying, and is a lot more likely to promote civil conversation related to those things where, again, we can get valuable input.

It can be cathartic to really give someone a piece of your mind, and sometimes people deserve it. But most people don't.
I think what's being asked here is that we respect that.



I will say though, it's true, sometimes when space lobby's dwelled on a heated topic too long, another admin might come in and try to pipe it down. I know I've done that, but it's usually only when I see people starting to be aggressive to one another, or complain. That's usually not a 'thou must never hold this conversation' but more, 'this is too heated, lets move off of this for now'.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby DeviliciousTreat » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:57 am

I think that's a very fair summation of what's being gotten at here, thank you.

On that note, looking back at it, I think I might have ironically gotten a little heated about this myself. Apologies, I think I could probably do with a little more chill myself.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Wickedtemp » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:41 pm

I feel like the recent "changes" in the staff-lineup may be in some way relevant to this topic, but I don't know if I'm alone in that.

edit: also found the example of lack of transparency
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