Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby DeviliciousTreat » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:11 am

Aces wrote:There is little more infuriating than being told how to do your job by someone else, especially when that someone admits they aren't qualified to be doing so.


I don't think I'm unqualified to do so at all. In fact, the reason I chose to share my opinion in the first place was because I felt qualified in doing so. What I had offered was an honest admission of how my circumstances might have been different, as well as my belief that it is not how one judges their own actions, but rather how others judge them that ultimately matters in this case.

The reason I feel so strongly about it is that I've had to deal with this kind of thing before, from both sides of the table, and yes, I'm sorry to say, I feel like the response given right now is inadequate. I have had subordinate admins who have simply been unable to get along and play nice with the regular membership, from whom I've seen this very same attitude. Whenever it became a problem, I would pull them into chat and inform them of the issue. I would ask them to explain themselves, and ask if they knew what steps to take to ensure that it would not happen again. If they couldn’t do that, then I would demote them on the spot; they likely weren’t a good fit for the job in the first place, anyway. If anything, I feel like that process was extraordinarily lenient because it didn’t require much from the person in question, merely a clear commitment to better themselves for the good of the community – a bare minimum, as far as I’m concerned, for every member of staff. I still came across people who didn’t meet that, and as loathe as I was to do it, I removed those people from their positions because it was the right thing to do if I wanted this community to grow and prosper, and that I did. I very much did; it was the reason I accepted become an admin when I was asked in the first place.

On the other side of the table, I’ve had interactions with my superiors at the time I was an admin where it was clear to me that they didn’t feel the same way, who would draw the line at doing anything for the community if it meant admitting that they were the ones at fault, who would play the same song and dance of pretending to be dealing with an issue and, in the end, would take no steps to resolve the issue, or to ensure that it doesn’t happen again. There was even one incident where the simultaneously admitted that they didn’t record the reason why a member was banned, but won’t be lifting said ban, and the person who issued it wasn’t going to get so much as a reprimand. Hearing that was like hearing a bad joke, except that the punchline was the sound of any hope I had for that community, which I cared for of love, shattering. Although unfortunate, that such attitudes set in is entirely unsurprising – admins are a self-selecting group, and if they weren’t already friends before, working together tends to at least instil a sense of camaraderie in them, which, in and of itself, is a good thing. The trouble comes when no one wants to take any action against anyone else, because that would ruin the thing they’ve got going together. I have no doubt that my superiors at the time thought that they were doing what was best for the community, but they weren’t willing to do what was necessary. I’ve had to ban people whom I considered good friends at the time, and I suspect that you have too, and though it hurts to do, I did it because it was the right thing to do at the time. I’d find a little hard to believe if your status as such a long-time member of this community hasn’t let you get away with things that you perhaps shouldn’t have.

Am I claiming that I’m some kind of uber-admin who wouldn’t have ever made the mistakes that, at lease in my eyes, you have made? Abso-fucking-lutely not. I have made such mistakes in the past and, as I am only human, I will likely to make such mistakes in times future. The difference, I feel, between you and me, is that I have owned those mistakes. I’ve owned the toxic atmosphere that was growing during my time as admin and I’ve owned my failure to act when I should have. Then, me and my team got about to fixing that and if the reception I got when I announced that I was stepping down was any indication, I think did a pretty good job. Part of owning my mistakes was letting people shout at me, as you seem to be letting us do here, but a bigger part of that was listening and taking personal responsibility for the state of the community at any given time, whether it be good or bad at the time.

I personally couldn’t care less whether you view my words as an insult to your integrity. All I’ve seen from you from you so far has been evasiveness on the issue and the kind of lack of responsibility that just wouldn’t fly on any ship that has its shit together. If I’m wrong about that then good, I want to be the one who’s wrong here, I want to know that what I’m describing isn’t an issue here, or at the very least is an issue that’s currently being taken care of. Unfortunately, I don’t believe that I’m wrong and all you’ve done so far is manage to reinforce my views that this is an ongoing problem with no solution in sight, rather than dispel them.

In short, just so that we’re absolutely clear, I’m questioning your suitability for the role of admin, and I know that I’m not the only one. Luckily for you, this discussion is being held on the one platform where you’ll be shielded from that opinion as, in your own words, those lazy assholes never use it anyway.

Aces wrote:I'm having my rant in the first place because people like you have the audacity to lament about how we aren't putting in a sincere effort to do our jobs and hear criticism when we are. This community would not have lasted for six years otherwise. I'm inclined to go, "Sorry, but who the hell are you?" in response to this post, and I have little respect for your input on the matter.

Now, I could just as easily choose to bottle up these emotions, but you are all asking for my sincere input on this, so I'm giving it to you now, and the fact that some of it isn't nice is my criticism in return. Do not accuse me of failing to take criticism just because I have things to say in return. To say I have not accepted criticism flies in the face of my actions which have resulted, again, in my self-demotion because it was made apparent to me that I was not in tune with the current desires of the community, and that my actions were causing damage rather than help. I can accept criticism, but when that criticism is that the staff aren't allowed to also criticize bad behaviors we see in the community, I say again to that "tough shit."


People like me are regular members who make the server, Ace, and who you are doesn’t make one lick of difference to me – if I see a problem, I’m going to call it out, no matter if my problem is with a long-time admin or not. To do any otherwise would be stupid.

And I’m not accusing the staff of not hearing criticism, I’m accusing you of not hearing criticism, and possibly Scree too, though my opinion on them is yet to be solidified.

I also recognise that you might have taken steps in the past to curb your damaging behaviour, but that doesn’t give you a free pass to continue engaging in damaging behaviour of the same kind or otherwise. I don’t think those measures have worked, and this whole shtick of just throwing up your arms and going ‘well, we tried’ is exactly why I’m accusing you of not taking responsibility.

Neither have I, nor anyone who’s criticised you so far, have suggested that the problem is that you can’t criticise bad behaviours. That is an insane reading of what we’ve come here to you with, and potentially downright dishonest. Criticise bad behaviours however often you god damn like – it’s your job, after all. Don’t stir up shit when people are doing exactly what they’re supposed to be doing – having polite, reasoned discussion. What bad behaviour were you calling out when you tried to shut down a discussion because you merely found it to be tiresome? What bad behaviour did Scree call out when they ridiculed people for their opinions? What you were doing there was not calling out bad behaviour, but rather bad behaviour from any other member, and therefore bad behaviour from you, too, and I’m calling you out on it.

Aces wrote:I genuinely believe people are too lazy to use the forum, and that a lot of problems that arise through the inane bickering that so frequently occurs on Space Lobby could be avoided if people would use the god damn forum. Not all of it, for sure, but I would have an easier time moderating it.

This community is sincerely getting to a point where I want to pull the plug on it due to the sheer amount of disgusting disrespect many of you have for each other. I was incredibly close to doing a purge of members for the sake of quality control and ejecting toxic elements, because at the end of the day, I do not have to and should not cater to the elements of our community who perpetuate that negativity. None of you are entitled to this server, and I am not required to sit here and take or observe abuse of other people. No, the community isn't perfect, but my brash opinion of "I don't give a fuck" about those particular community members is something that has benefited the long term health of our community. Why? Shitty players and shitty people will move on when their demands are not met. However, they will be replaced by good players. I learned this lesson early in the days of Vorestation, and I learned it from a top admin of the largest ever Minecraft community at the time. I was going to college with him. He told me, and it's true to this day, that not all players are valuable, nor is their input. You may not want to hear it, but I will sooner take his advice than yours.

Furthermore, I want to clarify that when I refer to the toxic nature of the community that I wish to purge, I have a list of names in mind. Yours is not on them. Despite the fact that your criticism irritates me, understand that I recognize it to be a sincere effort to try improving something, and because of that fact, I respect it. This is the difference between what you present compared to the kind of bickering I am referring to becoming the norm. The act of complaining without proposing a solution is called whining.


If you feel like the community isn’t using the forum when they’re supposed to, you own that. If you feel like the community is becoming shitty and disrespectful towards each other, then you own that too. Instead, you complain at length about these issues without offering any solutions before accusing others of whining.

The first of these likely can’t be helped. It sucks, but you either adapt and move on or you just keep whining hoping that everyone suddenly comes around to your viewpoint and starts using the forum again, which isn’t going to happen. The second of these… well, that’s kind of the reason this thread was opened up. I don’t think I speak only for myself when I say that we feel this same kind of disrespect coming from some of the admins at times, and whether you mean it or not, we’re equally as appalled at it as you are. Perhaps the people you’re thinking of too aren’t meaning to be disrespectful either, but just can’t seem to recognise it when they are? The difference is, when a regular member is being disrespectful, they’re told off, and there’s consequences if they overstep their bounds. When an admin is being disrespectful, we’re told that we’re just complaining because we want to complain. If you don’t see how this doesn’t contribute to the same kind of toxic atmosphere you claim to be trying to solve, then I don’t know what to say to you. Follow your words and lead by example as you said you do would be the only advice I would have left.

Aces wrote:Again we're back to what irritates me, because you imply we aren't already doing this. The thing is, admins are still people. Admins are allowed to have opinions about things just as well as the other players. Admins are still people who are prone to getting emotional. We try to discourage it same as we discourage it when players do it. We moderate and scold each other same as we do other players. I am allowed to have strongly worded responses in defense of myself and my team just as you are allowed to have strongly worded opinions about it as well. The difference is I'm not trying to tone police you right now because I consider the contents of your statements to be an "insult" to my integrity. Sure, I'm mad; I can't help being mad. I recognize that you aren't doing it to piss me off, though. You're doing it because you think you can resolve something by talking about it.

What you fail to understand is you're preaching to a choir who has been singing this song for ten years.


You say this to me as if I don’t already know.

I’m not too ashamed to admit that when I was admin, I sat in a chatroom full of other admins who were all in tears, all of whom were grown-ass folks, because things were going like shit, and we all felt responsible that things we’re going like shit. After we gave ourselves five minutes to do that, however, we got back to work on making sure that things don’t continue to go like shit. The point is, I’ve experienced it all before, so you don’t have to telling me that being an admin inspires some pretty strong negative emotions at times.

No one is trying to take away your right right to an opinion. No one is trying to take away your right to be angry, or upset, or whatever, and I’m insulted by the suggestion that anyone is implying that here. The point I was making is that when your emotions get the better of you, and that ends up causing issues, you own that. You don’t do this number where you claim that you acted out of turn because emotion got the better of you but then also insist that you did nothing wrong and that you don’t have to change a thing. Pick one and act accordingly.

[quote=”Aces”]I will not speak for Scree. However, I will say that your claim that the admins never admit fault is verifiably wrong. Not just the ban appeals forum admit when we are wrong, but there have been numerous OOC announcements by me apologizing for when tempers get short. I assume you haven't been around to see them.

Literally just a couple of months ago I announced that I was stepping down for a self-suspension that I have referenced multiple times now. Once again, I am irritated that you fail to acknowledge that. It leads me to question where you were when this happened. If you missed this, I ask what right you have to comment on the current state of affairs when you give me zero credit for my actions so far. Once again, I see no reason to take any of your advice, as you don't seem to have any understanding of where I am coming from.[\quote]

It probably is wrong, as you say, but I also didn’t claim that, so that point is moot. What I had claimed was that some admins seem quite reticent to accept any personal responsibility for any issues. I’m not going to be arguing any beliefs you imagine I might have, Ace, only ones I do actually have.

I also don’t appreciate this repeat attempt to claim a free pass by virtue of past efforts. If the issues are still there, and it seems to me, at least, that there are no current efforts to fix them, then what does it matter? If all you want is for me to tell you good job for you to hear me out then sure, I guess will: good job on all those other times you did take steps to resolve those issues, but I’m more interested in current, ongoing issues, for which you have no plans to take any steps and have absolved yourself of all responsibility of.

On top of it excusing, I find this kind of attitude infuriating at a deeply personal level. I have relatives who will attempt to excuse their current shitty, shitty actions by pointing at all the supposed progress they’ve made, before reverting right back to being exactly as they were because they don’t want to take responsibility for their current actions. I don’t tolerate that kind of crap from them, and I won’t tolerate it from anyone else. If I think you’re doing wrong now, then I will call you out it, any efforts you made in the past be damned.

Aces wrote:So I often say "The act of complaining without offering a solution is called whining." You are clearly not here to whine, so that's good. However, the suggestions you've offered so far are things that are already being employed, leading me to think you are badly misinformed on what admins are trying to do to fix things. Another problem here is sample bias, which is when your opinions are based off data that only appears in certain circumstances leading to an erroneous picture of the situation. People only get mad at admins (and in fact everyone else) when they do something bad. People remember the negative more than they remember the positive. They also only notice when things go wrong. Ergo, you're not going to remember the negative, so you fail to see the positive, because why would you ever bring that up? The only people coming to this thread are probably going to be the ones who feel the same way as you, regardless of how much they have or have not actually played on the server. I have not bothered to look up how much you've played here because I am not wanting to make that relevant, but your complete ignorance of major events like my stepping down from staff leads me to believe you either have not been here long or you're not nearly as invested in the community as you claim that you are.

And before you get angry at me for the tone of my message or the stubbornness that I show to criticism, also understand that criticism is a two-way street. If you cannot take it, you should not be dealing with it. No, that doesn't mean you have to roll over and just accept whatever the hell I say. If I thought that were true, everything I just said would be hypocritical. You're allowed to defend your position, but then so am I. What I wish people would understand is that there is a difference between a tense debate and outright disrespect. At no point do I feel you have disrespected me. Yes, you've pissed me off, I've said that, but you've not disrespected me in doing so.


Sure, I’ll fucking take that I haven’t been here as long as you have, or a bunch of other people have, and thus don’t have the greatest experience in interacting with admins. Sure, I can’t possibly know everything that’s going on behind the scenes. Sure, my personal feeling are mixed up in this.

Even so, I’m not going to accept that my criticism of your dismissive attitude is invalid when I’m literally being told ‘who the fuck are you to question me?’ over and over again, here.

I’m not going to accept that this issue is somehow being solved in the background while publicly I’m being told that there’s no issue and that whatever I’m bringing up isn’t a real problem.

I’m certainly not going to accept you telling me to give you headpats and call you good boy for things you’ve done in the past that seem to have had no effect on present issues.

I might not have felt disrespected before, but your constant questioning of me even so much as having an opinion on the matter sure as shit makes me feel disrespected now, and it’s exactly the kind of problem that I was bringing up in the first place! There’s this sense that you’re trying to make it seem like you’re open for discussion, when really it feels more and more like my opinion was unwelcome from the very beginning, and that this discussion is more to keep up appearances. It makes it feel like valid opinions only come from valid sources, and that I am not a valid source. I agree that there’s a difference between tense debate and disrespect, and I believe that you’ve crossed that line.

Aces wrote:In conclusion, I just want to say something in regard to this, and that it's I get it. I, personally, at the moment, don't think very highly of your opinion. I have made that obvious. Does that mean you shouldn't fight for it? Fuck no! Be a stubborn bastard. Maybe we are entrenched in our ways. Maybe we are making the very mistakes that I've watched kill communities in the past. We aren't going to know that until people bash it into our heads. You alone may not be enough to convince me, but if your sentiment is echoed by others, I end up being forced to listen. The only difference between now and the past is that I'm no longer in a position where I can force action quickly and without regard for the opinion of other staff. Whether or not that is a good thing is to be determined by everyone else, and the only metric I have of it is the server's player count. For the time being, I made a promise to be more involved, and I would not be here discussing it if I wasn't.

It may take time, I may have my head up my ass and not even know it, but I can't do anything too risky right now or I risk causing further damage. In spite of how much your sentiment might aggravate me, it is still important for me to hear. I can't help being aggravated. I can't help getting emotional. I would appreciate it if people remembered that the admins are human too so they aren't so surprised when we respond angrily from time to time and act like we're completely unjustified in doing so. If someone is being disrespectful, there's often a good reason for it. I am not saying that justifies it per-say, but we've shown a great deal of patience for this community, and only recently is that patience running very thin. The question right now is what we're supposed to do about it. I do not intend to shift blame, but if I felt that the blame on the admins was as serious as you imply, I'd have fired those admins by now, and have taken such drastic action already in the past. Perhaps I just don't see it yet.


I can’t speak for anyone else on this, but I’m not asking you to do anything risky. I’m not asking for a round of bans, or to implement some kind of all-new, arcane system to deal with this sort of thing. I would be entirely satisfied with just a few very minor, very simple things from just a few people: an acknowledgement that admins can, and have needlessly escalated discussion in recent times, an acceptance that the environment that the admins work in is one that they helped create, and a resolution to better themselves for the sake of the community they work for. The fact that these three minor things, that would only cost some admins a little pride to do, have been rebuked with such ferocity and vigour is absolutely fucking shocking to me. I feel like the latter two of these at least are a fundamental part of any admin’s responsibilities, and the pushback I’ve gotten from even suggesting so is completely mind-boggling to me…
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Wickedtemp » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:24 am

This has turned into an essay contest when all that needs to happen is a general effort to not say provocative/aggressive things when you're handling an issue. No passive-aggressive "Wow its the SAME PEOPLE, I nevER WOULDVE THOUGHT.", no "ALL OF YOU ARE FUCKING ENTITLED TODDLERS",

Just...snark.

We're asking you guys to cut the unnecessary snark

I don't know why that's seen as a huge and monumental thing. Its kinda basic.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby DeviliciousTreat » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:39 am

Sorry, I'm just upset that such a seemingly minor thing to me has been met with such over-the-top hostility.

Maybe I shouldn't have engaged in such a long-winded debate that's obviously not leading anywhere, but I stand by everything I said. No one is asking for much here, and the fact that the same kind of poisonous attitude that's the main cause for complaint here has infected these discussion too is a problem.

If anything, this thread has definitively shown that Discord is not the problem here.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Wickedtemp » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:36 am

Yeah, I honestly wasn't expecting resistance to the idea of "Maybe people should make genuine efforts to remain calm, civil, and refrain from making snarky/aggressive comments for no reason"
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Aces » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:41 pm

Wickedtemp wrote:Yeah, I honestly wasn't expecting resistance to the idea of "Maybe people should make genuine efforts to remain calm, civil, and refrain from making snarky/aggressive comments for no reason"


Wickedtemp wrote:This has turned into an essay contest when all that needs to happen is a general effort to not say provocative/aggressive things when you're handling an issue. No passive-aggressive "Wow its the SAME PEOPLE, I nevER WOULDVE THOUGHT.", no "ALL OF YOU ARE FUCKING ENTITLED TODDLERS",

Just...snark.

We're asking you guys to cut the unnecessary snark

I don't know why that's seen as a huge and monumental thing. Its kinda basic.


You kind of look like a hypocrite here, not gonna lie. I was going to drop out of this discussion because reasons but I can't just stand idly by and ignore that.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Aces » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:48 pm

I've had a day or two to chill, anyway, so

DeviliciousTreat wrote:Sorry, I'm just upset that such a seemingly minor thing to me has been met with such over-the-top hostility.

Maybe I shouldn't have engaged in such a long-winded debate that's obviously not leading anywhere, but I stand by everything I said. No one is asking for much here, and the fact that the same kind of poisonous attitude that's the main cause for complaint here has infected these discussion too is a problem.

If anything, this thread has definitively shown that Discord is not the problem here.


I haven't properly read your larger post up above yet but after having some time to mull it a bit I'm starting to think you might have a point after all, especially in that last line. Though perhaps you understand why my patience is so thin when we have comments being thrown around like what I just saw; someone who comes in and says something inflammatory that turns an already tense discussion into a flame war.

Incidentally, remember what I said about it always being the same people?

That said, perhaps my own temper still needs to be more in check regardless. My frustration was given as a reason. My viewing your lack of qualification was not meant as a means of saying "I'm not going to listen to you" but more to implore you to do exactly what you have done, which is keep drilling the point you feel strongly about because you know there is a long term end goal that benefits the community's health. I admire that, even if I don't agree with everything you say. That's more than what I can say for Wickedtemp's outburst. They are among the group of "same people" who I am referencing.

I'm personally just going to ignore Wickedtemp's blatantly inflammatory comments which offer nothing useful to this. I don't know if you care to do the same, but I don't find anything they just blurted out to be particularly helpful.

Wickedtemp, I would advise you to think more before you speak, or at least when you do speak, try to take after DeviliciousTreat's example and actually put some sincere effort in instead of just scoffing at it rudely.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Scree » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:55 pm

I'll admit that I have little interest in reading huge essays either. I work in a technical industry, I like neat, clear, specific bulletpoints.

Sebbe mentioned transparency, which I believe is one of the issues that led to the discord arguments that sparked this, the rest mentions some things that probably happened at some point but isn't specific enough for me to actually address, so I won't.

Are there any specific issues that you would like us to be more transparent about? Any admin decisions that you disagree with, or just want to know how we arrived at the decision we did? I'm all ears. Seriously, if there was a rule or policy change and you want to know why it was done that way, especially if it's something that might seem unintuitive, ask away. If you come out swinging straight away with "this is a stupid fucking idea" in public then that'll trigger the instinctive "well fuck you then" reaction, especially if the chat then starts moving too fast for me to explain the decision - or worse, if the decision IS explained and people shove it up off the screen. If people make it impossible for us to give a detailed answer, then you won't get one.

That's something the forum is great for, by the way, as it gives a place for you to ask a question and have us give an answer without it getting buried under the peanut gallery.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Aces » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:01 pm

So much for me dropping out. I can't stay out of a good tense argument. It's a weakness.

DeviliciousTreat wrote:
Aces wrote:[quote=”Aces”]I will not speak for Scree. However, I will say that your claim that the admins never admit fault is verifiably wrong. Not just the ban appeals forum admit when we are wrong, but there have been numerous OOC announcements by me apologizing for when tempers get short. I assume you haven't been around to see them.

Literally just a couple of months ago I announced that I was stepping down for a self-suspension that I have referenced multiple times now. Once again, I am irritated that you fail to acknowledge that. It leads me to question where you were when this happened. If you missed this, I ask what right you have to comment on the current state of affairs when you give me zero credit for my actions so far. Once again, I see no reason to take any of your advice, as you don't seem to have any understanding of where I am coming from.


It probably is wrong, as you say, but I also didn’t claim that, so that point is moot. What I had claimed was that some admins seem quite reticent to accept any personal responsibility for any issues. I’m not going to be arguing any beliefs you imagine I might have, Ace, only ones I do actually have.


I haven't been able to finish reading and I have to sleep soon so forgive me for seemingly to nitpick at one detail but

DeviliciousTreat wrote:(...) it seems like some members of staff here aren’t just unwilling to put in that effort, but they’re suggesting that it’s all everyone else’s fault. This kind of behaviour takes the perceived distance between admins and regular members and starts to make it very real.


It looks to me like you claimed exactly what I said you claimed.

Can you possibly tell me what I misunderstood here if that is not the case? Because I read it as you saying that admins are just blaming everyone else instead of admitting their own faults. Perhaps never isn't correct for me to say, but you get my point.

EDIT:

DeviliciousTreat wrote:[Big ol' fuckin snip]


So I have read the rest of this and it basically amounts to being upset at me and Scree somewhat for responding negatively to the community. In context, you are probably referring to Discord conversations in particular and how those seem to always devolve into shit shows wherein one of the staff comes in and just shuts it down when people are being polite to each other.

I don't particularly have much else to say other than two points.
One is that they really aren't being polite to each other and that's usually why I get called.
Two is an admission that, okay, maybe you have a point in that I can try being a little more chill about it.

That said, I am also curious how the interaction to follow is about to go. You said that it is okay for me to criticize people and their bad behavior so let's see what happens when I do that to one of our usual offenders. Do you think my response to them was unfair in any way?
Last edited by Aces on Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Clarity / finished the rest
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Wickedtemp » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:13 pm

...Nothing I said was intended to be inflammatory. I just said what was, in my opinion, a goal of this discussion, which I see as a relatively small one. There's no need to assume malice of any kind here.
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Re: Issues Regarding Escelation, IRE for short.

Postby Aces » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:20 pm

Wickedtemp wrote:...Nothing I said was intended to be inflammatory. I just said what was, in my opinion, a goal of this discussion, which I see as a relatively small one. There's no need to assume malice of any kind here.


I know you might not have meant for that to be inflammatory, and I believe you when you say that, but it sure felt pretty inflammatory.

You reduced the entire argument to a few lines in all caps and then scoffing at the fact that we wrote these essays to begin with because

Wickedtemp wrote:(...) I don't know why that's seen as a huge and monumental thing. Its kinda basic.


Well, clearly it isn't. You may not agree, but obviously we feel strongly about it, and your reductionist input was rude as hell.

Furthermore, you offer nothing constructive at all. You are mad at us for snarking, but that's literally all you came here to do.

EDIT: Am I using that word right? Reductionist? Hopefully it's understood what I am meaning to say.
Last edited by Aces on Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: "You may not agree, but obviously we feel strongly about it, and your reductionist input was rude as hell."
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Aces
 
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