Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby jemli » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:18 am

Honestly, I feel that we've given worse people a second, or even third chance. So, I'm supporting the overall ban being lifted with the other restrictions remaining.
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby Aces » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:30 am

That last post about a new player stood out to me. Above all things, that is the kind of thing I never want to see happening in my server. I am disgusted that it happened, and I am upset that I wasn't able to do anything about it at the time. I am grateful we did not lose a possible new player over it, but I do not want to risk it happening again. Our server is not your playground. It is for all players--not just those who are necessarily good. There is no competition to be won. There is nothing you lose by failing. You have no reason to treat other players in such a way, and I will not tolerate it.

I have no sympathy, and I don't think you've changed even a little. I can't tell you about the people who have messaged me privately, but know that the opinion has been unanimously negative. I am not letting that influence my opinion here, but know that it doesn't have to, because R1f73r's post torpedoed any hope of your appeal going through unless somebody starts saying some real magical nice stuff about your current personality.

Jemli, I'm sorry, but the fact that we've "given worse people a second/third chance" is not relevant. We've had people do worse things, but we've also seen them grow and improve. Mewchild has not. They have no right or entitlement to come back here, and we should not base our sympathy on "Why not?" although even if we do, there's a damn good reason why not.
“A leader is one who, out of madness or goodness, volunteers to take upon himself the woe of the people. There are few men so foolish, hence the erratic quality of leadership.”
― John Updike
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby Iroquois Pliskin » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:12 am

Not to kick anyone while they're down, but I think it'd be wise to put in my 2 cents, like I did with the last appeal.

Mewchild and I were/are polar opposites. We clashed on... just about everything. He said and did things about me, my characters, and the people who associated with me that do not inspire sympathy. He plays by the book hardasses, I liked to be a memey shitter. It was inevitable that we would clash. But even some characters and players I've clashed with like this in the past have reached a certain mutual respect, where we know the other well enough to be able to understand that at the end of the day it was just a game we were both playing to have fun.

Mewchild however managed to inspire a hostility and disdain I can't recall feeling anywhere else. One that has 2 years of reasons behind it. I actually liked him, once upon a time. Cheri and Ciphrom have similar backstories that we lampshaded from time to time, completely without intending to. But even before Mewchild started playing Phi, there was some unidentifiable tension between us that I never understood UNTIL he played Phi

But enough about history, let's talk about your appeals. You did nothing in your last appeal, or this one, to address the concerns that numerous players have/had with you, including your own friends. As Thranos said, you've taken your old appeal and made some minor additions. Anyone who clicks the link that you yourself provided can see exactly what we mean by this. The situation Rifter mentions? I remember that, in a vague sense. I recall that mess, and how rude you were being. I also remember all the times you fucked up, and threw a fit when someone called you on it- only you had the ability to abuse space law to shut them up.

2 years of bullying, strongarming, abusive IC/OOC practices, and backhanded rumour milling is a lot of bad blood to build up.

No support.
Todo: Not fuck up.
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby rotago » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:43 pm

I've read over this appeal more times than I'd like to have. Phi, you have historically been a problem player and a bully. But the thing is, that I've covered that in your last ban appeal, and I don't feel the need to cover it again. But for now let me look at the reality of things. It's been three months since your last ban appeal. You were banned for a whole host of issues, that you had problems addressing. But the thing is, in this appeal you've made a 180. You brought up a whole HOST of issues that you, laid out why what you did was wrong, how you could improve, and why you wanted forgiveness. I cannot see anything other than sincerity in this appeal.
You have a long list of notes Phi, and while you did not address everything at question, I cannot in all honesty, expect you to address every single issue. Then I see the responses here. The main argument for your appeal seem to be "You seem to amended your issues with others, and it's been a while so let's give you a second chance." I say this is a weak argument. You deserve a second chance because you came here with an honest attempt to seek forgiveness. As I said, you laid out your own issues, laid out how you were at fault, and asked for genuine forgiveness and I cannot hold that against you.
As to the reason of "We've given much worse people an appeal" I have to agree and disagree. "Why not." is not a good or valid reason. But we have accepted a number of ban appeals with near as many notes, with way less sincere appeals. So rather than a "Why not." it's a matter of "This meets our standards." which is not good enough on its own, but combined with the previous statement I don't see any reason not to give them a second chance.
Finally, I see the main reason for denying this application runs somewhere along the lines of "Sure your appeal is nice, but your behavior on other servers has shown that you have not changed." However I have not seen a single example of poor behavior on other servers brought up here. There is not evidence for this claim, and is not very applicable. If any of these people claiming Apos here has not changed for the better can give instances, examples, and a real argument against accepting this based on outside interactions that happened after his last appeal, then I can consider said arguments. However even after said issues are brought to light, Apos should still be given the fair time to defend himself against such accusations. I don't feel it is fair to bring in tangential problems without evidence or support to said claims against an appeal.
Overall I have to say that accepting this would require the same "Easing back into the community" that was brought up earlier. I Fully Support this appeal under the conditions that Apos Stay banned from security and head roles, and Apos be kept on a short, short leash. Your Wall of Notes is enough to make any staff blink, but if you sincerely wish to rejoin, change, ask forgiveness, and atone for past transgressions, I cannot see a reason to deny you such privilege.
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby Mewchild » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:08 pm

I do plan on replying to this and addressing the concerns and points brought up, but it'll most likely be after the holidays. I have precious little free time right now, something I'm sure most of us can relate to.
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby radiantAurora » Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:29 pm

After reading through these replies and both Phi's previous ban appeal and this one, I feel the need to reply.

While I may not know Phi very well, I believe that what I've heard from people much closer to him is enough to say that he should receive my overall support.
While Phi has clearly wronged on several occasions to deserve this ban in the first place, everything I've heard of him from other people suggests to me that he would use the time since his ban to, as he says he has, look over himself and change for the better. Phi has also clearly been exceptionally willing to accept that, yes, he did deserve this ban at the time. Such acceptance speaks to me and tells me that he would, at the very least, try his best to use that fact to reflect on himself. For someone to have such an acceptance that they have wronged, and be so willing to accept that the only person to blame for such wrongdoing is themselves, is worthy of a hell of a lot of respect.

As for my own opinions on Phi? All of the bad things I can say about him are sourced from other people's experiences with him. I have not had a single bad experience with or around Phi as a result of his actions, with all my own experiences with him having been just totally average, uneventful experiences, or pleasant.

Now I'm going to weigh in on what's been going on with Phi's two appeals.
So, Phi makes his first ban appeal four days after the ban itself, which then got rejected. This was totally justified, very few people can change on such short notice.
But now it's been roughly three months since Phi's ban and, if Phi truly has been trying to change as he says he has, I feel that three months is enough, if not more than enough time to reflect on himself and make such changes. Yes, you can argue that some people will never change, but some isn't all.
All the -support this thread has stemmed from a single poor experience, one that, while bad, I feel is being used to work against Phi to a downright unfair extent, assuming that Phi's promises hold their merit. If other people agree that Phi should remain banned, they should speak. If they don't, they should accept that their opinions should go unaccounted for.

If Phi says he has changed, which he has, why not let him prove it? If he's unbanned and can remain a good player as he promises to, he can stay.
If he hasn't changed? He can be banned again.

I say we give Phi a last chance.
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby Sylv the Shy » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:29 pm

I've been wanting to reply for a while but couldn't figure out how I wanted to state my opinion until recently.

I've been around Phi since the ban took place and I chat with him consistently and play games with him often so I strongly believe I can state my opinion on how he's changed. Before the ban, I could see some of what people had said with him being a bully and being rude. The ban happened and during the same day he hopped onto Destiny 2 with me to help me level up for an upcoming event I wanted to participate in but needed help with. He didn't mention the ban or anything to me and I had found out about his ban because people were openly discussing it in lobby. I looked into it and to my surprise he had in fact gotten banned. I saw that the reasoning was yelling at Rykka and the result was a permaban which surprised me again because the ban seemed so harsh for such a simple thing. I ended up looking around and prying for info and I found out that a fair amount of people in the discord didn't like Phi because he tended to clash personality-wise with a fair amount of people.

I was a bit stunned, Phi never mentioned he got banned to me so I eventually asked him while playing Destiny 2 with him what had happened. He explained what happened in short detail but everything he said matched exactly with what I had heard and what I had read what had happened. He was completely honest with me about the ban and I asked if he was going to appeal for an unban and he told me that, No, he wouldn't be appealing for an unban until about the end of the year. I dropped the subject because I didn't want to make him more uncomfortable with it and we ended up talking more and more and playing a lot more games together.

When people talk about how bad Phi is, I honestly don't see what they're saying at all. Maybe what they were saying was true in the past but I've been consistently talking with Phi since his ban 4 months ago and I can say he has completely turned around from what people say he was like. I've talked with him and played games with him often and he's helped me during the four months of his ban, so much so that I'm going to go over the major things Phi has done for me.

In September, we both participated in a very hard raid for Destiny 2 that took 6 hours for professionals of the game to complete (we spent about 8 to 10 hours and didn't finish it), it was an extremely hard challenge that had multiple parts and during it, he never got angry, he never yelled or tried to take charge and was willing to listen and try out new ideas during the whole event. Midway the event someone got a migraine and Phi personally made sure the person was ok and that they were ok to drop out if they needed. We couldn't finish the raid but later I wanted to run the raid but I had to look for 5 other random people. My anxiety got to me and I couldn't post a Looking for Group post in the LFG discord so I went to Phi for help. He helped calm me down and guided me on how to look for a group and made sure I was still ok and calm while I was running the event. If he wasn't around I wouldn't have been able to do one of the coolest game events I've ever participated in and probably would have stopped playing all together from self confidence issues.

Around October, I was going through a rough patch in my life and it was affecting me very hard with the server to the point that I wouldn't leave science because of my anxiety. What was worse was Duke had started planning for a werewolf event and I was one of the werewolves for the event. I was very quickly freaking out because I was worried I wouldn't be able to Dom properly or be able to satisfy people with my level of RP. Phi and I were playing a game together and I mentioned it and he listened to me talk about it and how I was worried and he talked to me how he believed I could do it and could run the event just fine. After talking with him for a while I felt like my anxiety left and I participated in the event and had an amazing time. I wouldn't have been a werewolf for Duke's event without his help and kind words.

In November, I was going through finals week and I was freaking out badly. My grades were poor and I was worried about passing the semester. My anxiety crept back into me and started ruining me from the inside to the point that I was considering committing suicide. During this time I still talked with Phi regularly and he would usually notice me upset or depressed and would ask me what was wrong. He listened to what I had to say unlike a lot of people I call friend and would just let me unload what was on my mind. He also helped me by telling me that he was there for me and that he is around if I ever needed him to the point that he gave me his phone number to call him if I ever needed to talk to anyone at a moment's notice. He was genuinely worried about me and I'm honestly grateful for it.

In the middle of December, about two weeks ago, I had surgery. The surgery kept me in the hospital for the better part of a week and I was just completely alone the whole time. Before and after my surgery I was miserable because I couldn't eat food, I couldn't enjoy anything because my disease kept me away from things. During this time Phi was around to check up on me and make sure I was doing ok and would talk to me when I was lonely and miserable to cheer me up and keep me company. We chatted about fun stuff and things we would do after my surgery as well as other small things. He kept me up-to-date on stuff happening in games we played while I couldn't play them from my hospital bed. He stuck around when I wasn't feeling good and was there to make my stay at the hospital better. We had also talked about how hard it would be to code for the game. I would talk about some ideas I had and he would tell me how it could work, and he never shot me down, much unlike most people in the discord would. He helped me enough to the point that I plan to soon start coding for the game in the near future.

During the whole four month period we talked with each other a lot, in DMs and Voice chat and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that he has changed for the better. When he had gotten banned he had seemed very taken aback from what some people said to him in his first appeal. I asked him about the things people said about him and he talked to me about it and what he had done in the past. He was upset with himself when he talked about it and I've watched him change himself for the better over the past four months.

I tried asking Phi for help writing this post and he refused to help. When I asked why he said he wanted me to be as unbiased as possible and even before wouldn't talk much about the ban as of recently. I can't help but respect him for this decision, (much to my dismay since I am not the best writer) and I feel this shows that he's changed here as well.

Something else that I feel is extremely to mention is that when I was new to the station, I was extremely nervous. I had just gotten out of an abusive relationship and was not in a great state. After a few days I had managed to get the controls down well enough that I started working in science as a roboticist. During this time however, I had some people get incredibly mean with me. People stole equipment from me, people tried forcing me to do things for them that would get me in trouble with the admins, people tried to take advantage of me being new to get me to print them contraband and insulted me, telling me I was a terrible roboticist and should quit. People even went into the discord and complained about me being new and how bad of a roboticist I was. I'm not naming names because it isn't relevant, what is relevant is that I was considering leaving the server entirely but I happened upon Phi. This was my first time meeting him and he saw that I was upset at the time. He asked what was wrong and I talked to him about it and he listened to me. After I unloaded what had all happened he talked to me a bit and helped me with some self confidence issues I was having at the time. He also told me that some people in the server are just bad and I should ahelp them if it happened again. He then showed me a few things on station and explained to me that this was a game and while you still had jobs and stuff, the server had a ton of potential to it.

If Phi hadn't shown up then and talked with me, I would have quit the server within the first week of playing it because of toxic players ruining several rounds for me in a row. I wouldn't be here to enjoy the server and have fun in the community, I wouldn't have been a werewolf in Duke's event, I wouldn't be getting ready to code for the game and I wouldn't have so many good friends to talk to.

He's changed from what so many people seem to remember him as, and I've seen the change happen with my own eyes. He's an amazing person and I feel like he should be allowed to come back.

I am giving Full Support to Phi's appeal.
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby Wumbus » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:42 am

Nothing in here demonstrates that you've changed. A vouch from a credible source (admin/headmin) within a different, credible SS13 community would be a good start that shows you can play nice with others who disagree with you, maybe even two or three honestly. It would be nice to see you actually try and supplement it with evidence, since past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. When I was giving Citadel a shot and was playing over there, I saw Phi pop up, and it was unsurprising that there was IC headbutting despite Phi working in engineering. Whether they were right or wrong, whether the IC hostility warranted it, irrelevant to me. It was the same shit, different server. Granted, this was a little bit after the ban, so still a ways out, but it was the same exact actions. I haven't played on Cit much since, and have returned to regularly playing on Virgo and it's actually been a noticeable improvement for my enjoyment not having you on the server. I would say this might just be attributed to Phi the character, so a charban may be an acceptable start towards improving things, but even as Ciphrom (which we see in the notes) you do some psychomurder shit and this will invariably get in the way of me trying to do predcurity things. Ultimately, I think you're still too toxic, and I didn't enjoy the unwelcoming atmosphere I experienced with you being around.

You said it yourself that the server deserves more respect than you've given it, so how about some action and results instead of more talk?
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby PontifexMinimus » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:01 am

I have talked with a couple of citadel admins and they seem to be torn about you in the same fashion as we are in this thread right now. Very controversial!

After some digging, however, they pretty much said the same things what we complained about with you, so I am not entirely buying it you're a change man. Really, I rather not have this song and dance again where you are nice for a couple of weeks and then something ticks you off and you become a nasty fucker again, because that sure as fuck pisses me off the most.

I'm very hesitant to give you an unban at this time, especially with the opinions voiced here and what host chat has to say about you.
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Re: Mewchild - Rule 6 Community Ban

Postby Aces » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:32 am

There shouldn't be such controversy over someone deserving of an unban. I think this has festered long enough.

Appeal denied. Try again in a month or more.
“A leader is one who, out of madness or goodness, volunteers to take upon himself the woe of the people. There are few men so foolish, hence the erratic quality of leadership.”
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