Circuit Cloning

A general area for the general things that generally happen in our server.

Should we have circuit cloning?

Yes
6
60%
No
4
40%
 
Total votes : 10

Circuit Cloning

Postby Knightfall » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:15 pm

I've been messing around with circuits again lately, and decided to go check Polaris github for anything on circuit cloning. Turns out it's already done, the code is there, but it wasn't merged for balance reasons - https://github.com/PolarisSS13/Polaris/pull/4253

Basically, if we want circuit cloning to ever get merged in, it'll have to be done on Virgo's end. The pros and cons are very well hashed out in the github pull request on it, only we aren't an action server so that isn't as much of a concern for us.

The tl;dr is: It's a huge QoL boost for people making really complicated stuff, you can save your progress from round to round. On the other hand, it's a power creep as said complicated device can be remade every round with less effort. It's worth noting that it doesn't clone anything inside a circuit that can hold stuff, so you'd need to refill/reload all those yourself and rewire that part of it. Personally I think it'd be worth it, because no one really makes super complicated circuit devices purely because all progress is lost every round.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby somekindofpony » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:43 pm

Yes please.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby arokha » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:20 am

Strongly opposed to this. It will go the way of NTSL and other things, where it's just OOCly "finished" because people know what the best thing is and they just copypaste the script in. It becomes a job where basically zero work results in job perfection, and job perfection in the case of circuits is EXTREMELY powerful. Autoguns that shoot from inside bags, completely insane hyposprays that are far better than anything craftable anywhere else.

I'm fine with those things existing, but not with them existing "because I got on the wiki and copypasted a script into a box in the game"
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby Knightfall » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:07 am

arokha wrote:Strongly opposed to this. It will go the way of NTSL and other things, where it's just OOCly "finished" because people know what the best thing is and they just copypaste the script in. It becomes a job where basically zero work results in job perfection, and job perfection in the case of circuits is EXTREMELY powerful. Autoguns that shoot from inside bags, completely insane hyposprays that are far better than anything craftable anywhere else.

I'm fine with those things existing, but not with them existing "because I got on the wiki and copypasted a script into a box in the game"


Guns shooting from inside bags is not an intended feature, and circuit hyposprays are only slightly better than an actual one while being far bigger. TG has had cloning for a long time, and yet you still see people making their own original designs all the time. The huge number of things you can do with circuits means that there is no one script that will ever do it all, it's not even close to NTSL in any way. And the ability to never save your work is why only a few people ever use circuits, the reward vs effort is far too small, and the amount of time it takes to make, test, and remake your stuff is staggering if you are getting really complex.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby Heroman3003 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:09 am

arokha wrote:Strongly opposed to this. It will go the way of NTSL and other things, where it's just OOCly "finished" because people know what the best thing is and they just copypaste the script in. It becomes a job where basically zero work results in job perfection, and job perfection in the case of circuits is EXTREMELY powerful. Autoguns that shoot from inside bags, completely insane hyposprays that are far better than anything craftable anywhere else.

I'm fine with those things existing, but not with them existing "because I got on the wiki and copypasted a script into a box in the game"


That sums up my thoughts on the circuit cloning. Even if it will help circuit designers somewhat in short term, long term it will make the whole job completely trivial and just about getting printer, cloning upgrade and having wiki/pastebin/etc page open with all cool designs made by someone else.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby Knightfall » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:25 am

Heroman3003 wrote:
arokha wrote:Strongly opposed to this. It will go the way of NTSL and other things, where it's just OOCly "finished" because people know what the best thing is and they just copypaste the script in. It becomes a job where basically zero work results in job perfection, and job perfection in the case of circuits is EXTREMELY powerful. Autoguns that shoot from inside bags, completely insane hyposprays that are far better than anything craftable anywhere else.

I'm fine with those things existing, but not with them existing "because I got on the wiki and copypasted a script into a box in the game"


That sums up my thoughts on the circuit cloning. Even if it will help circuit designers somewhat in short term, long term it will make the whole job completely trivial and just about getting printer, cloning upgrade and having wiki/pastebin/etc page open with all cool designs made by someone else.


Not even remotely true, and anyone who says something like this clearly hasn't used circuits that much. Things that store something in them start empty, EPv2 circuit addresses reset with each round. You need to manually do those things yourself even with cloning, and like I said TG has had cloning for a long time and yet people still take the time to make their own designs. The statement that it'll end up like NTSL is false because we already have an example of a server with cloning where that isn't true. Are there designs people share? Yep. Has it completely stifled all creativity with people just using copy pasta with zero effort? Nope.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby Wickedtemp » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:26 pm

I've never played Science aside from Robotics one time, I have zero experience with circuits. What's this about "scripts"? Is there 'coding' involved when it comes to circuits? If the issue is "but then you can just copy/paste a script", isn't that something we already have due to the ability for someone to copy what they've written down so they can use it as a template for later rounds?

This is going to have to kinda be given an ELI5 for me before I can really weigh in one way or the other.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby Knightfall » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:11 pm

Wickedtemp wrote:I've never played Science aside from Robotics one time, I have zero experience with circuits. What's this about "scripts"? Is there 'coding' involved when it comes to circuits? If the issue is "but then you can just copy/paste a script", isn't that something we already have due to the ability for someone to copy what they've written down so they can use it as a template for later rounds?

This is going to have to kinda be given an ELI5 for me before I can really weigh in one way or the other.


Not exactly, right now you can write down what's in a machine and what it connects to, but it's just for your own reference. You have to manually install and rewire it all. With cloning, you can analyze a machine and get a code for it, which you can then use in later rounds and it will make that same machine with everything already wired together, and with all the settings on it intact, with some limitations. Namely it can't make anything that isn't a circuit, so if you had a gun mechanism it won't clone the gun inside it, so you have to take it out, insert gun, and then rewire it again. For large, multi-machine projects, this can save you a lot of time that you would otherwise spend redoing what you already did.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby Turreus » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:48 pm

As someone who's been toying with circuits on here for a while, I feel the need to weigh in on this:

As it stands, circuitry has only two limits: the parts available to use, and the time/patience demanded to assemble such a complex machine. As I see it, circuitry NEEDS at least one of these things to avoid going completely off the rails; if you can create complex machines in seconds with a pasted code, then it'll either be abused every round by players seeking to annoy everyone else, or hyper-optimized powergamers aiming to trivialize as much of the station's tasks as possible (one of which I expect to be me).

If it comes down to it, and we can choose to remove one (and I do firmly believe it must ONLY be one) of these limitations: I'd rather have cooler parts to work with, and more ways for my machines to interact with and manipulate the world around them. I'd rather the tools be amazing in potential rather than accessibility.

and to be honest? with enough experience, you don't need a one-button solution to put together a circuit; even complex devices are just a few clicks from being put together once you understand how they work. Circuit cloning would just make things easier on the lazy folks, the ones who don't even understand how it works and just pastes the codes others make. Perhaps it's elitist of me to say that, but I do think some things should take actual effort to master.

That's about it from me.
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Re: Circuit Cloning

Postby Knightfall » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:07 pm

Turreus wrote:As someone who's been toying with circuits on here for a while, I feel the need to weigh in on this:

As it stands, circuitry has only two limits: the parts available to use, and the time/patience demanded to assemble such a complex machine. As I see it, circuitry NEEDS at least one of these things to avoid going completely off the rails; if you can create complex machines in seconds with a pasted code, then it'll either be abused every round by players seeking to annoy everyone else, or hyper-optimized powergamers aiming to trivialize as much of the station's tasks as possible (one of which I expect to be me).

If it comes down to it, and we can choose to remove one (and I do firmly believe it must ONLY be one) of these limitations: I'd rather have cooler parts to work with, and more ways for my machines to interact with and manipulate the world around them. I'd rather the tools be amazing in potential rather than accessibility.

and to be honest? with enough experience, you don't need a one-button solution to put together a circuit; even complex devices are just a few clicks from being put together once you understand how they work. Circuit cloning would just make things easier on the lazy folks, the ones who don't even understand how it works and just pastes the codes others make. Perhaps it's elitist of me to say that, but I do think some things should take actual effort to master.

That's about it from me.


I very highly doubt we are going to get new circuits anytime soon, the person who was porting newer parts to Polaris from TG stopped after they denied the cloning merge. Cloning is an integral part of the original design, and without it this version will never hold a candle to the original. Circuit cloning would very much make things easier for me, and I definitely understand how it works, I make my own designs. I spent many hours experimenting to learn how everything works. All I want is the ability to save my designs here.

And circuitry has a third limit which everyone seems to be dismissing, part cost. A single large machine could easily cost you 15 metal sheets, so you certainly can't mass produce stuff to do everything, especially if we made cloning cost more resources than hand assembly.
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