[demicusmaximus] Kainoa - Server Ban

[kainoa]

[b]Byond account and character name[/b]:
Kainoa

[b]Banning admin[/b]:
demicusmaximus

[b]Ban type[/b]:
server ban

[b]Ban reason[/b]:
"Reason: You're not listening. Come back tomorrow when you can carry on a conversation without acting like an ass.."

[b]Ban length*[/b]:
1440 minute ban

[b]Approximate time ban was placed[/b]:
2:08 AM

Thursday, December 10, 2015
Eastern Time (ET)

[b]Your side of the story[/b]:
We were having a conversation about the server's policy on forcing people to apply for races
Demicus_maximus muted OOC for everyone
I adminhelped him and told him that when someone doesn't like the OOC conversation they should use the "Hide/Show OOC" under the preferences tab instead of his solution of removing everyone's right to communicate
I tried to tell him it's not right to do that, he said I was getting on his nerves
I apologized and tried to validate myself, he banned me for getting on his nerves

here are the logs
http://pastebin.com/EvQhHjvb
I have removed all IC text, if you would like the exact logs I can post those too, but I was in the middle of something private so i'd be best if I didn't have to

[b]Why you think you should be unbanned[/b]:
I wasn't treating him like shit, he overreacted and completely took away my ability to join the game in exchange for his ego. He communicated poorly with messages like "I suggest you look this over. Right now. Because you're toeing a line with me." I tried to talk to him in a private chat, neither of us could communicate though because he said he was too angry to talk.

on the other hand, I took a personal problem I had with someone to a private chat and tried to tell him specifically why I was unhappy or uncomfortable.

[JoanRisu]

There is a time and place for opinions and using an environment meant for fun and getting away from the politics/drama/issues/life/etc is not the right place for it. This is not a forum to discuss OOC issues, it is an RP server. You turned a minor problem like being asked to take an ooc discussion to the forums into a bigger deal than it needed to be. Feel free to voice your concerns on the forum where it is appropriate. -Joan Risu Duration: 5.6 Hours

I've edited the reason attached to the ban and the timer in case this topic never actually gets made but, of course, this does not resolve the issue and the topic is here in the appeals forum.

Here are some problems I have here and I am using my own logs for this.
1. Elitism is never something you should be throwing around lightly. Elitism suggests the admin working under me is a aristocratic snob who thinks they are better than everyone else and arrogant in everything they say with a whiff of asshole and high horse morality. Find a better term because, honestly, there was little wrong in what they were asking other than perhaps the delivery.
2. I REALLY don't care if there is a preferences button or not for OOC chatter. We have a forum for a reason. One of the few reasons we keep OOC on in the server is for announcements, the occasional giggle, player-to-player assistance, and perhaps coordinating tracking down a god damn griefer. If the discussion is excessive and creates a wall of blue, its time to take it to the chatroom or forum. Especially if players find it disruptive and especially if it is over some issue better suited for a forum. This is not your personal chatroom, this is an RP server.
3. You initiated the conversation with
Request for Help:: Kainoa/(Nevaia Buzzard)(?) (PP) (VV) (SM) (JMP) (CA): ugh, obligatory "I don't like discussion so nobody's allowed to talk"

Do you HONESTLY think an admin was going respond kindly to that? Read that out loud to yourself and ask if that was an okay thing to start a conversation with. I probably would've pulled Demi in and calmed them down had you started with something better.
4. This is apparently the THIRD time an admin or moderator was called in to cut down on Blue Wall Text recently. Cut it out. This is not your personal chatroom, this is an RP server.

5. And this is more of a personal note but it is currently flaring a bias at the moment: I came onto the station to have fun, not deal with something as minor as being asked to take something to the forums. I am not happy about the fact that this thing that could've been quietly shuffled into a chatroom or the forums has turned into a bigger problem than it needed to be. I am not happy that one of my admins is being accused of Elitism when they were well within their rights to ask that the OOC chatter ceased.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate you or anything. If I did, I wouldn't be addressing this and letting this ban stand. I am currently just an unhappy squirrel.

[Scree]

Chipping in here to say that telling people to locally mute OOC is entirely inappropriate since that also messes with LOOC which is necessary for communicating preference issues - which is a pretty major thing for a heavy-roleplay ERP server with a strong vore/kink/bdsm element. We have a chatroom for these kinds of discussions for a reason.

[kainoa]

1. Elitism is never something you should be throwing around lightly. Elitism suggests the admin working under me is a aristocratic snob who thinks they are better than everyone else and arrogant in everything they say with a whiff of asshole and high horse morality. Find a better term because, honestly, there was little wrong in what they were asking other than perhaps the delivery.

I am not throwing this around lightly.
>there was little wrong in what they were asking other than perhaps the delivery
I tried to talk about an action he took as an admin. He did not directed me to the person who made the policy but instead he used the conversation to try to tell me that what I was saying had no merit because I told him in a pretentious or condescending tone. In a way that shows me he's being an aristocratic snob where he values his own feelings over clarifying issues. I wasn't informed that it was a global policy until nearly 30 minutes AFTER I was banned. Up until then I was never told that anything he did was something other than his own decision to mute OOC because he didn't want to listen to it.

2. I REALLY don't care if there is a preferences button or not for OOC chatter. We have a forum for a reason. One of the few reasons we keep OOC on in the server is for announcements, the occasional giggle, player-to-player assistance, and perhaps coordinating tracking down a god damn griefer. If the discussion is excessive and creates a wall of blue, its time to take it to the chatroom or forum. Especially if players find it disruptive and especially if it is over some issue better suited for a forum. This is not your personal chatroom, this is an RP server.

Again, this is the first time I'm being told about this from someone other than him. I was inclined to believe that he had banned OOC because he didn't want us to talk about something. It would have ended the conversation instantly if he told me that OOC was being muted due to a rule and not due to a decision he was making alone.

3. You initiated the conversation with
Request for Help:: Kainoa/(Nevaia Buzzard)(?) (PP) (VV) (SM) (JMP) (CA): ugh, obligatory "I don't like discussion so nobody's allowed to talk"

Do you HONESTLY think an admin was going respond kindly to that? Read that out loud to yourself and ask if that was an okay thing to start a conversation with. I probably would've pulled Demi in and calmed them down had you started with something better.

So I get a day long ban because I got mad and said something condescending? I didn't call him stupid or make fun or him or say anything like that. The whole reasons admins are needed are to be able to responsibly deal with people who are angry from grief/hate speech/server problems.

5. And this is more of a personal note but it is currently flaring a bias at the moment: I came onto the station to have fun, not deal with something as minor as being asked to take something to the forums. I am not happy about the fact that this tIhing that could've been quietly shuffled into a chatroom or the forums has turned into a bigger problem than it needed to be. I am not happy that one of my admins is being accused of Elitism when they were well within their rights to ask that the OOC chatter ceased.

I can't really comprehend this point it's a bit of a mess so I really hope what I said above will answer this, sorry.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate you or anything. If I did, I wouldn't be addressing this and letting this ban stand. I am currently just an unhappy squirrel.

I really cannot find a way to say this without being perceived as a total asshole
and you're probably going to keep the ban just because I say this...
But... Are you seriously responding to someone who's furious and pissed off about being banned by sandbagging the whole thing and saying how lucky I am that you don't hate me? Because you're being super hypocritical when you act all snobby to me right after defending an admin who banned me for doing the same thing.

[kainoa]

Chipping in here to say that telling people to locally mute OOC is entirely inappropriate since that also messes with LOOC which is necessary for communicating preference issues - which is a pretty major thing for a heavy-roleplay ERP server with a strong vore/kink/bdsm element. We have a chatroom for these kinds of discussions for a reason.

This is not true
I would right now join the server (I can't because of the ban) and screenshot the two separate buttons to show you that
one says "Hide/Show OOC" and one says "Hide/Show LOOC"
and they both do different things. Go and try it right now please because people keep telling this to me.

please stop spreading this misinformation.

[Scree]

Muting the OOC channel from the admin panel silences LOOC too.

You know, the thing the big bold "stop spamming OOC" adminbutton announcement we have asks you not to make us do?

Really the fact that we have a big giant red bold "stop spamming OOC" button should have been an indicator that it was a rule - which you should have read before even getting on the server, saying you weren't aware that it was a rule is no excuse.

If you don't like that, feel free to find another server.

[kainoa]

I think I'm going to stop replying to this thread, feel free to mark it as resolved and use whatever decision you all decide to make as the final say.

Do you think it would be a reasonable request to add to the server's global rules that most OOC should be taken to the chatroom instead of the server?

It might help people avoid the same situation I got stuck in, which would make me feel way better.

[JoanRisu]

I wasn't informed that it was a global policy until nearly 30 minutes AFTER I was banned.

Ignorance of the rules is not a defense you should be throwing at me. You should've read up so you could defend yourself and maybe even catch us off balance. Instead, you are using lack of knowledge in the rules to defend yourself.

So I get a day long ban because I got mad and said something condescending?

1. It was reduced but now I've since seriously reconsidered that decision.
2. A condescending tone did not help your case to begin with.

I really cannot find a way to say this without being perceived as a total asshole
and you're probably going to keep the ban just because I say this...
But... Are you seriously responding to someone who's furious and pissed off about being banned by sandbagging the whole thing and saying how lucky I am that you don't hate me? Because you're being super hypocritical when you act all snobby to me right after defending an admin who banned me for doing the same thing.

You're right. I told admins I was willing to lift the ban, not anymore. I'm going to bed because I wasted an hour on hearing this case out instead of RPing.

Application Denied Overriden by decree of supreme fairly elected democratic leader Spades. No but seriously read the next post and you'll understand why.

[Scree]

Just gonna follow this up.

PM to Demicus_Maximus: it's just not morale to insist that your discomfort with OOC is more important than our right to communicate :/ it's kinda inconsiderate

You were never asked not to communicate. You were asked to communicate elsewhere, which is a pretty big difference. Whatever you were discussing, there was a more appropriate place to be discussing it than the in-game OOC. If someone busts out a megaphone and decides to stage a political rally in the middle of the theater during a performance of The Importance of Being Ernest, you bet your ass the ushers will show them the door without infringing their first-amendment rights.

Furthermore, from the rules page on the wiki, even if we didn't have "no spamming" in the global rules:

Admins may act based on their judgement, even if it's not explicitly in the rules.
Just because something isn't written down doesn't mean "it's allowed" or "it's okay" if it ends up disrupting RP for other people on the station. This is just all the stuff we could think of. If you don't like an admin's orders, comply for the time being and contact another admin as soon as possible for a second opinion. Admins are also at liberty to judge what is an "overpowered" character. If it results in a ban, you can always appeal. It's not impossible that the admin was being unfair.

It's unreasonable to expect the entire playerbase to mute OOC in order to be able to play without their posts being drowned in a sea of blue, and lose all the actually useful things that OOC is actually useful for, so you can have a long discussion on something better suited to the chat or forums.

[Aces]

My first response is: "It's a 24 hour ban. Suck it up. Next time, don't be a prick to the admin who you've had the dispute with."

1. Global Forum rules still apply here.
2. Failure to follow the format specified is automatic grounds for rejection. If you can't follow directions, then you aren't deserving of an unban.

Both of these rules apply here. More-so the first than the second. Aside from not formatting the title correctly, the rest looks fine, and just copypasted over wrong somehow. I normally overlook incorrect formatting unless it's really bad.

The first rule applies to this specifically:

Kainoa/(Nevaia Buzzard)(?) (PP) (VV) (SM) (JMP) (CA): ugh, obligatory "I don't like discussion so nobody's allowed to talk"

See, that kind of sarcastic response is not how you start the conversation. Your banning isn't a result of "ego" bullshit because having to ban someone ends up trampling upon an admin's ego more than anything else, because an admin doesn't want to ban someone for a shitty reason. Your ban was because the admin attempted to make the effort to explain, but your own ego got in the way, and you were mocking and disrespectful to the admin who ultimately got sick of trying to explain it.

The admin made a clear attempt to explain things. You continued to be a snarky prick. That is why you got banned.

Also,

Muting the OOC channel from the admin panel silences LOOC too.

This is true and not something we've found a way to fix yet. As I understand, all SS13 servers have this very same issue. Players can selectively mute it, but the global admins cannot.

But this boils down to a couple things.

It makes me feel uncomfortable and upset when someone doesnt let people share their opinions

Go to the forum. Not trying to be mean, but no one wants to have their chat box clogged up with OOC blabber about off topic subjects.

when someone doesn't like the OOC conversation they should use the "Hide/Show OOC" under the preferences tab

That's fine, for a temporary solution. However it also restricts communication that is very important on a heavy ERP server. Things like, "I got digested and need a clone. Can I get a clone?" (metagaming clones post-vore is allowed), "I have to go soon. Anyone want a quick scene before my character gets off?" "Hey, I'm a new player. Can someone show me the ropes?" "Hey you, I was trying to RP with you and you ran off before I finished typing. Can you come back please?" OOC discussion is meant to be brief and to the point. It is not a place for in-depth conversations on any topic, be it politics, religion, server policy/rules, Pokémon cards, dank memes, one's life story, etc. We have the forums and chat for those.

So stop acting like this ban is about you sharing opinions we didn't like.

If there's anyone here who likes to argue, it's me. Yet even I am forced to hold my tongue when my favorite topic of politics (for example) comes up in-server, because if I don't, we'll be talking about it all night and no one will be able to use the OOC channel for its intended purpose. I fucking love to argue. More often than not, it's people asking me to stop OOC spamming. And I own the place.

But anyway, in regard to the rules; I feel like this bit about off topic discussion is relevant to the global rules, but if you think your appeal thread had no impact, do not fret, for I have updated the server rules to be more specific about this sort of problem.
https://wiki.vore-station.net/Rules#Bas ... be_written
There we go. Now no one can have this problem again.


In the future, please avoid the sarcasm. Aside from an annoyance and insult, it diverts the conversation and makes issues harder to deal with for the admins, which wastes our time that can be spent either helping other players or enjoying ourselves. Don't do that. Sarcasm is defined in the dictionary as "the use of irony to mock or convey contempt." It's the mocking bit that pisses us human beings off. You wouldn't have gotten much better response had you done this to anyone else in the community and you still would have been asked to stop and you still would have been banned had you not stopped. Sarcasm is something you do with your friends. Not your co-workers, bosses, classmates, or people you barely know.

Now there's only 2.5 hours left in your ban, but I'm going to flex my powers here anyway.
Override: Appeal accepted.
Reasons:
1: I feel this could have been handled better by just muting you and not the whole server. That's partially my own fault, my own bad habit, that has rubbed off on other admins.
2: While this was covered by the rules, I don't think it was covered very well, and I have updated the rules to fix this.
3: I think we drilled our point as to why the ban was made to begin with. The ban doesn't serve its purpose any more, and you had enough time to chill. Don't be sarcastic or snarky to admins in future and we won't have to go through this appeal process.

I was really on the fence about overriding this ban so you'd better not make me regret it, because more often than not, players who express this kind of sarcastic behavior end up being problems in the long term who get banned anyway. So don't embarrass me, would you? Knock it off and you're good.