[Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby Haery70 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:40 pm

I've never been around them long enough to truly know them, but I can weigh in what I know about them from experiences. As the Internal Affairs Agent of that round, I had an OOC hunch on what has happened between these two individuals based upon their general IC behavior. But, from an IC perspective, there were two reasons on why I didn't take the case:

  • There was currently no solid evidence at the time that I was asked to weigh in that there was any malpractice and I wanted to wait until Security was finished with their investigation so that I can weigh judgement on both sides. But, it would be an unfair judgement anyways because...

  • The character [Pelops Galopogas] that I was playing as during that time had a generally negative experience with Ahz throughout the past half a year in both the Expedition field and onstation. The biases on Ahz was more than enough for him to withdraw from the case despite not mentioning it to Command or Security.

These negative experiences range from telling someone to eat a dick after being told to not threaten their coworkers over some BS involving wanting to use a suitcase turret or something like that in the Underdark to outright attacking someone for unintentionally releasing an artifact from it's container mostly because I had no idea how to use an artifact container since I quit doing Xenoarch long before they got implemented that disabled their mech and trying to run off with it while he was trying to put the artifact back in it's respective container In defense, the character was a synth that's in danger at the time and an apology did come later. So, I'll give credit to that. All of these incidents along with the ones that I haven't been around to witness combined with these ban appeals and what you've stated that your character has done on the Discord felt like childish temper-tantrums over things not going the way that the player playing as them intended them to be, which looks more like an OOC issue rather than an IC issue combined with potentially not being a 'reasonable and sane character'. If you ask me, I feel like this should be the time for you to make a new character and try to use what you've learned from these past bans to redeem yourself, because a character that's constantly confrontational and antagonistic when things don't go the way that was intended generally all the time doesn't sound like something that NT would approve.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby xonkon » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:47 pm

As some of the other people said in this thread, as a full disclaimer I've been asked to put my opinion down by Kazkin. I'd also like to put a full disclaimer in big, bold text that the idea of character bans make me a little uncomfortable, but that is neither here nor there. Ahz is a ruthless, rude and abrasive character that doesn't make a lot of friends and is prone to violence in a lot of steps, and to me, that's perfectly fine in an OOC respect. I have a habit of enjoying confrontational characters, it can add to the atmosphere of the game and allows for conflict to arise on a server where most conflict is derived from RP rather than direct antagonists. Of course this is a view that a lot of people might disagree with, and I respect that a lot of people don't want confrontation in their game. Overall from a purely OOC perspective, I don't think Ahz should be character banned, at least permanently. However I will acknowledge that from an IC perspective that Ahz is a bad employee in many respects and probably should be fired, (not like that stops a lot of characters anyways though.) Overall I would say that Ahz's character ban should be kept, but I don't believe it should be permanent. Let Ahz take a decent sized suspension for her IC actions and let Kazkin play some different characters and cool off a bit.
tl;dr Temp character ban and also highly biased.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby Mr_Signmeup » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:29 pm

I'm bias in this as well to, well... both sides. Kaz and Apos are good friends of mine and to see this split like this is really sad to see but... If Apos does not wish to interact with Ahz OOCly anymore, then... We can't force that upon him. And as much as a shame that it is to say that, it'll be difficult to retcon two or three months of RP from several people. The easiest course of action is, unfortunately, for Ahz to be barred from the station, at least for now. The option to appeal a ban is always open unless under certain circumstances. So, if things just need to calm down for a month or two, people collecting their heads and letting emotions die off, we could look at this situation with fresher eyes but for now. I'm on the side of the ban being kept until next month where it can be appealed again.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby nerdass » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:46 pm

tbh i don't really give a shit about any out of character whining and begging because it's already known that you're a manipulative clown, in dealing with the messes you've made in the past it's given me the context to understand that your word isn't worth shit, kazkin.

no self reflection or statement of how you'll be a good boy will change the fact that whenever you get pissed, you always get stupid, and our station isn't your goddamn stress ball.

all that matters is what you did. not why you did it, or whether or not you'll do it again, and what you did is something that got your character fired.

it's my opinion that maybe, just maybe, if the consequences for your actions stick, you might just learn something from them.

NO SUPPORT.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby Scree » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:25 am

On the topic of confrontational characters, there's the both the OOC and the IC way of looking at it.

ICly, it strains belief that someone who's that rampantly insubordinate could manage to hold a job at all, let alone make it to a leadership position such as pathfinder, no matter how good they are at the technical aspects of their job. Hell, I can't even count the number of articles I've read about how to handle people that are highly skilled/capable yet impossible to get along with - the advice is near-universally "fire them, a team of B-listers who can work together is better than any single superstar". Nobody's expected to be a perfect cooperative angel at all times (this is space station 13, after all) but there's a limit where it starts to cross over into taking the piss, and honestly half the time Ahz comes across as practically daring people to fire them, like you were acting out in the belief that there never would actually be any consequences, especially taking things to a head right at the end of the round when there's no longer time to arrest, fire or shoot them, followed by "well my character didn't get fired before round-end so they got away with it and they still have a job next round".
I've rarely directly interacted with Ahz in-character, the nearest thing to a direct confrontation was a "could you fucking not" during the kneecapping incident but otherwise letting her off without a demotion, only for her to immediately go directly against her boss's instructions and kick off an argument when told, once again, to cut the shit - essentially, the character makes a habit of taking a lenient boss offering them an olive branch if they stay out of trouble, then throwing said branch directly in their face.
And when there are finally consequences to this, someone wises up and doesn't offer you that branch, the reaction could best be represented with a surprised pikachu.

On an OOC level, which is the level I'm far more concerned about, there's the simple fact that this is a game. A thing that people play to have fun, to relax, to unwind. I'm not going to speculate on what sort of jobs our playerbase actually have, by and large, but a lot of the time when someone gets home from a shitty day at work the last thing they need or want is to come on for some nice chill relaxing lewd arrpee, and here they are having to deal with some asshole making that harder on them and filling the textbox with constant fight-picking and insults that just turns playing on the station into a stressful experience to deal with. Sure, dealing with some asshole can make for some good RP if everyone involved is in the mood for that sort of thing, but the problem with Ahz is that people end up having to deal with her whether they're in the mood or not.
For reference, see the following section from the Guide to Not Getting Banned.
While this is a role playing game and it should be understood that actions are character against character, and not player against player, if you play an insane, evil, predatory, antagonistic or otherwise unpleasant character, it is advisable to make sure your fellow players are "on board."

tl;dr this is a game and other people want to have fun playing their characters too without someone openly being an asshole to their face every time they're on.

To drive another nail in, there are a couple of people who wish to remain anonymous, who have informed us that they've taken to checking the who list to make sure you're not logged in before they decide whether to play or not. We've even had one player come to us since the charban and say they don't want to post in this thread out of fear that they'll make an OOC enemy of you. That is the sort of reputation you have, and exactly the sort of thing I don't want our players to have to worry about. If I'm going to be placed in the position of having to deal with you, or deal with the people who are driven off by your presence, I'd rather keep the latter.
We've tried to be patient, I've mostly been passing complaints on to Resh to try and reason with you and ask you to tone it down since he's a lot less harsh than I am, but just like the in-character olive branches, you appear to have taken this leniency as a sign that there won't ever be consequences, and so it's finally come to this.

On a more personal note, in my opinion even a charban is pretty lenient given that my immediate gut reaction to the situation with Seraph even without the direct shittalking your boss afterwards, was that you should just be straight-up banned from medical roles, if not banned outright. Seriously, someone comes out of a vore scene, they shouldn't have to worry about whether the guy working medical is going to randomly do something outright vindictive like deliberately sleeve them into an unfinished body. Needless to say, if anything remotely resembling something like that happens again, on this or any other character, your ass will be out the door before you hear the fucking snap.

If this wall of text wasn't clear enough, no support at this time.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby AsteralFox » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:53 am

I believe in second chances. as I encounter this character and player I can see that Ahzrukhal is a well developed character that I'd actually would miss due to the interactions I have with several of my characters (ETC Rana and Miranda) and other peoples characters in a positive way such as Phi and Resh. also Kaz certainly seems to regret their actions and has apologised to tempest which is important since it does show promise of change and I do notice how sometimes someones mood can affect how their character acts. and sometimes we regret making certain decisions, after all we are all human.

in my opinion. give kazkin a chance to make amends. even though they may not be able to play medical again as Ahzrukhal.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby HzDonut » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:47 am

While I didn't interact with Ahz as often as some others in this thread, I did end up working with her on more than one occasion, enough so that I can confirm that Ahz can be a perfectly fine character when the player has a level-head. That said, I agree that they're also a bit of a bit of a dick IC, to the point where i often got a headache listening to any bickering that would happen while they (thankfully) at least got the job done, so I'd advise dialing back that aspect of the character a lot of you seriously get a final chance, since otherwise Ahz is one of the few people you can give a task to and have it done.

That all said y'all know I was in a pretty similar situation, so looking at how Kazkin is asking for a final chance while citing OOC problems as the reason for their behavior gives me a big oof to the heart, because loooord do I know that IRL issues can really make you end up acting like a total dillweed to people. So really what I'm getting it is maybe instead of a flat-out charban, maybe Ahz should end up takin' that one severe punishment I got stuck with on Jesse back when she murdered someone (or at least something similar): a big ol' temporary charban leading up to a month of "rehabilitation" into the workface which consists of being hard-locked to passive, harmless jobs like Chef while undergoing therapist visits until they're deemed no longer a threat to themselves and others. I can confirm that this punishment S U C K S, and really, if they end up managing to suppress their anger and tough through that slog than that should show ya that they really want redemption.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby nerdass » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:11 am

HzDonut wrote:While I didn't interact with Ahz as often as some others in this thread, I did end up working with her on more than one occasion, enough so that I can confirm that Ahz can be a perfectly fine character when the player has a level-head. That said, I agree that they're also a bit of a bit of a dick IC, to the point where i often got a headache listening to any bickering that would happen while they (thankfully) at least got the job done, so I'd advise dialing back that aspect of the character a lot of you seriously get a final chance, since otherwise Ahz is one of the few people you can give a task to and have it done.

That all said y'all know I was in a pretty similar situation, so looking at how Kazkin is asking for a final chance while citing OOC problems as the reason for their behavior gives me a big oof to the heart, because loooord do I know that IRL issues can really make you end up acting like a total dillweed to people. So really what I'm getting it is maybe instead of a flat-out charban, maybe Ahz should end up takin' that one severe punishment I got stuck with on Jesse back when she murdered someone (or at least something similar): a big ol' temporary charban leading up to a month of "rehabilitation" into the workface which consists of being hard-locked to passive, harmless jobs like Chef while undergoing therapist visits until they're deemed no longer a threat to themselves and others. I can confirm that this punishment S U C K S, and really, if they end up managing to suppress their anger and tough through that slog than that should show ya that they really want redemption.


We're not going to punish another player for Kazkin's sins.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby Aces » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:16 am

The arguments against this appeal are substantial, and the arguments in favor of the appeal are pretty weak from what I have seen. Unless that changes soon, I see no reason to accept it.

From exclusively an IC point of view, the company doesn't need proof. If the company thinks you are an asshole, you will be treated like an asshole.
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Re: [Aylen] Kazkin - Character Ban

Postby Wickedtemp » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:12 pm

AsteralFox wrote:I believe in second chances. as I encounter this character and player I can see that Ahzrukhal is a well developed character that I'd actually would miss due to the interactions I have with several of my characters (ETC Rana and Miranda) and other peoples characters in a positive way such as Phi and Resh. also Kaz certainly seems to regret their actions and has apologised to tempest which is important since it does show promise of change and I do notice how sometimes someones mood can affect how their character acts. and sometimes we regret making certain decisions, after all we are all human.

in my opinion. give kazkin a chance to make amends. even though they may not be able to play medical again as Ahzrukhal.


Phi's already said they'd rather the ban stay. In general, it looks like for every character who's had good interactions with Ahz, there are three more who have had little but endless hostility. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for second chances, but Kazkin's already had theirs. They've had at least three. They've already been banned before over shooting someone on an expedition viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1341&p=8791#p8791 - and obviously they didn't learn from that, because they did it again a month ago, and then the other night was "just another usual round with Ahz" as far as I'm concerned.

And, sure, maybe "when they aren't breaking rules and being an utter hellspawn, they can be pretty neat sometimes", yeah, pretty much everyone has "redeemable qualities" if you look hard enough, but the fact you have to make excuses should be enough of a statement in and of itself. If someone's great fifty percent of the time and an absolute edgy psycho twat the other fifty percent, and whenever you see them you've got no idea if they're going to high five you and compliment your haircut or if they're going to punch you in the face and try to steal your wallet, guess what, they're a shit person, they aren't worth your time.

I genuinely think that not only this character ban needs to stay, but it should be bumped to a full on server permaban. Nerdass has no fucking idea how right they are.
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