Should Micros be allowed to use guns?

[ulviiriara]

In the situation that Ulviiriara outlined above, it is my impression that the HoS being shrunken to a state of near-helplessness would be interesting roleplay. The HoS would rely on the other officers to take down the perpetrator, or flee and regroup. Would this make shrink rays incredibly dangerous? Yes, and that logically follows from the roleplay, expanding on it and giving new RP opportunities. Perhaps that means making shrinking technology restricted to certain personnel that require its use, and that in turn produces new possibilities for illicit activity in smuggling those items out, generating more roleplay on the station.

Those are my thoughts. I would love to see VORE move closer and closer to a state where the mechanics and roleplay overlap perfectly, and I think the present motion is a good step in the right direction.

Problem is that people were rubber necking on accident because it was outside the trader ship. So my officers had to move them to even hit the person with the shrink ray. And they were not trying to RP they were trying to bugger off, if I was rendered useless it would have been hilariously easy for them to just shrink ray all the officers, due to the tasers abyssmal accuracy, and just run off leaving sec impotent until we have a chemist or another shrink ray.

[Arbon]

Why the hell would a 3-inch crew member actually be involved in combat. From an RP perspective, you'd think they'd look up at their foe, and just go "FUCK ME, RUN AWAY!", because if a micro fights a macro, http://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Si ... &comp_in=5 this is what they see. That little tiny black sliver? That's a micro, at 5 inches in height. Going up against a macro, at 20 feet.

Your still thinking about the question the wrong way, assuming that if guns weren't present suddenly no micro would ever be in a position where they are forced to fight. It will happen, it does happen, the question is what do you want to be the optimal choice once that fight actually starts. Taking away guns simply means your ranged options are grenades or a stack of floor tiles, or if you don't have access to that then dive in close for melee combat.

Running away is only a viable option if you can move faster than the person chasing you. I've been in chase scenes trying to run away from someone, and you have been in chase scenes trying to hunt someone down. Notice those things called doors that delay the first person who pushes into them but remain open for whoever is tailing right behind them. The entire reason you managed to catch up to a cheetah and inject him before he could dart out into the halls. The escaper who runs away first is always at a disadvantage to the one chasing behind them as long as doors bar the way and you have no alternative routes you can take that the pursuer cannot. Add mouseholes or ventcrawling, this is a viable option. Without such, it just means you get picked off without a fight.

Hide? While micros are theoretically hard to see according to a vocal group that complain about it, when someone is actually chasing after me I've never once been able to loose a trail. Be it HuDs to help them point me out, or simply someone actively trying to spot a micro and having human typical vision to do so. Without a hide mechanic from say, laying papers down on top of myself or ducking inside a locker there isn't much a micro can do to become invisible. And once they spot you, then what? Run some more? Hide again? If you had succeeded in these (both of which usually mean not playing because you aren't interacting with anything) then you wouldn't be in the middle of a fight anymore. Success isn't exactly likely in my experience.

LOOK at that size difference. Between a macro and a micro. 20ft vs 3 inches.

Why is "I rush up toward his foot and bash him with a crowbar" a more sensible option in your eyes than run away screaming while firing lasers over your shoulder?

If you were to fight godzilla, you'd suggest everyone throws down their guns or rockets and picks up a club or a sword instead?

Yes that is exactly what Arbon would do because he has terrible eyesight and dislikes ranged weapons as a concept, but the tiny genemodded mouse trying to play monster hunter from a sec officer's pocket is a very weird baseline from which to put all other micro combatants into. Taking away guns doesn't mean there's no more combat or that a micro's best option is to run, running away is not a valid option against something chasing you and often not even possible against certain NPC mobs, or in situations where your trapped and can't open the door. It just means you fight with something else instead.

[Scree]

Arbon, you've literally bragged in the past about hiding in plain sight in the bar with the detective coat on because it makes you blend perfectly into the pattern of the tiles. Micros are absolutely hard to see. They're near-impossible to click if they're moving too.

Now, there is a solution to this that I'm considering, and that's making clicking a turf on harm intent (or disarm/grab intents for empty hands) be treated as if you were clicking on a mob occupying that tile. I think that would pretty much instantly get rid of the "micros are hard to click" complaints and it's far easier than trying to altclick a moving target.

[Lobo-Branco]

This is how I see micros on the station: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc9_H7mZxCI

I'm afraid I can't vote in favour of preventing micros from having guns. This would be trying to fix a balance problem by reversing it. Micros without guns would be forced into close range, where they could easily be stepped on and stunlocked, as the stomp mechanics were designed to discourage running up and punching giants. If we removed guns, micros would be almost helpless in any PVP fight.

Likewise, in a player-vs-mob fight, micros would now be at a severe disadvantage. Unlike players, mobs don't have to try to see and then click a micro in combat in order to hit them. A mob hits a player by scanning each tile in a radius around itself, and if any of the tiles contain a player, they attack that player. If a micro can't use ranged weapons on a mob, then they're forced to enter close combat, where the mob can autohit them, while normal-sized crew stay at range.

TL;DR: Micros are unbalanced right now, but removing something as major as the ability to use ranged weapons would serve no purpose but to even more severely unbalance them in the opposite direction, now being harshly underpowered instead of overpowered.

But shouldn't micros actually be helpless? It makes all the sense to me.

The biggest balance issue I can think of for this would be that shrink rays would become incredibly, hilariously op against security. Two shots and you've rendered them unable to use the gear they've brought with them, 'cause a non-micro sec officer isn't going to be carrying the micro-scale equipment.

Another possible balancing factor could be to apply a modifier to the character's max health, as seen with teshari, but that might be something for another thread.

Does the shrink gun causes a specific kind of damage? Couldn't we make Sec's vests and Command people's jumpsuits have 100% immunity to that "shrink damage"?

I actually wouldn't support any drastic change in health. It'd make the hardest type of patient to treat also one of the most urgent cases. Doctors cannot see where a micro's health bar is at with the HUD. They can SEE it, but unless you look real fuckin' close, it's difficult to see what level it's at. Triage with micros is abysmal as it is. Lowering their health, as much as it makes sense balance-wise, would make it even more difficult... As for shrink rays, "This is a for-fun tool used for size change RP. Mechanical abuse of this feature will result in an OOC consequence. So don't.", maybe add that to the examine text.

Shouldn't micros actually be like that? They are tiny and all.

Think about it this way.

Why the hell would a 3-inch crew member actually be involved in combat. From an RP perspective, you'd think they'd look up at their foe, and just go "FUCK ME, RUN AWAY!", because if a micro fights a macro, http://www.mrinitialman.com/OddsEnds/Sizes/sizes.html?base_ft=20&base_in=0&comp_ft=0&comp_in=5 this is what they see. That little tiny black sliver? That's a micro, at 5 inches in height. Going up against a macro, at 20 feet.

What sensible person wouldn't run away and hide?

Exactly!

[Vorrarkul]

I think this poll is flawed: to voice support that something must be done about micros, is to vote in favor of banning guns. However, it is entirely possible for someone to support the rebalancing of micros, but see the banning of guns as an improper method of achieving that; and given that this is to be voted on with the premise that no alternatives are available, this puts such people in a hard position where neither vote supports their actual view.

EDIT: After some musing on my post and this poll, I have changed my opinions slightly. I pondered why this poll exists, and specifically why Ace has decided to restrict the poll from discussing alternatives. At first glance, it seems reasonable to want to be given alternatives, as, see my above text, not all people will be satisfied with the binary decision presented to them. However, my conclusion- and correct me if I'm wrong- is that if gun bans were the only solution to the issue of micro balance, would we want to restrict them; if nothing else can be done, would we want something done?

Clearly, the topic of micros and their balance is a complicated and nuanced topic that could never hope to be solved with a poll of any kind, and in fact we may never reach a solution that satisfies all parties. In the face of such uncertainty, and under the restriction of considering no alternatives, I must vote in favor of the gun ban, because at least it's something. I would rather have underpowered micros than overpowered ones.

[Arbon]

To Scree, I have. But that's always while standing still. Either in the bar where the floor is brown, or on top of a vent grate, or beneath a light at times before Nightwing fixed the centering problem. It isn't really possible to hide while moving, and when being chased I've never managed to loose my pursuer by trying that same hidy trick. It works when no one is looking for you, making it perfect for spying or ambushing. It doesn't help much at avoiding combat entirely, against mobs or otherwise. I've always used it for ambushes or guarding an area.

Changing the click problem so you only have to hit the tile has been suggested before, would work fine, and ... hrm. The only problem if it could be implemented is that it would be easier to accidentally scoop or hit a micro without noticing them. Say, micros seated on the bar table next to a drink, you try to pick the drink up and scoop a micro instead. I don't know if anyone will complain about this. Likewise I remember Dinn mentioned that Flyswatter idea, a weapon that specifically targets a tile and could be a designated "Anti-micro" weapon, perhaps in the same vein as the proposed "Vaccume cleaner" and mousetrap weapons. The mousetraps are disappointingly tame against micros though.

Then again this thread isn't for discussing alternatives, just feedback about the idea of removing guns from micros on it's own. Encouraging Melee combat, grenades, or mechs instead of more standard weapons. And the idea that "I walk up and punch" as somehow the best option for a tiny person, would get so much traction is ... weird.

[Scree]

The only problem if it could be implemented is that it would be easier to accidentally scoop or hit a micro without noticing them. Say, micros seated on the bar table next to a drink, you try to pick the drink up and scoop a micro instead.

I dunno about you, but I generally don't scoop micros on harm intent.

[Arbon]

Oh. Harm intent only. I think I missed that part.

[Silhouette]

Hm. I missed a lot of posts.

While I sympathize with the Heavy RP Environment vs. Mechanical Environment bit, Nightwing, suffice to say I just don't think this can be gotten around completely without something being done about sprite size, and I absolutely abhor the idea of removing options or restricting playstyles for any player.

I admit, I was unaware of how the stomp mechanic worked, entirely, but I still assert that all of this seems to stem from the same place, and it still worries me that, much like Arbon? mentioned, this is just one step along the road to getting rid of micros and their functionality altogether.

I mean, look at some of the posts, here? Hiding in the bar with trench coats and blending in giving people an advantage... how many people have to complain about that before we are going to ban micros from having trench coats, or any clothing except a light up 'here be micros' sign? Someone in discord mentioned Micros using Stun Batons and Toolboxes, and sneaking up on or rushing unsuspecting characters who would otherwise see them coming if they were larger... do we eventually ban those, as well? Clearly, some people here in this very thread, and also on Discord, have declared some great support for the idea of 'helpless micros' who shouldn't be able to do things they wouldn't realistically be able to do... which is almost anything. Are we going to make micros into an effective substitute for mice, completely non-functional and ineffective crewmembers because that's what a 'heavy RP environment' would demand? (Off-Topic, but Interesting idea for NPC swap: Change mice into unnamed micros)

Don't get me wrong, I know no-one here, aside from maybe one person, is close to advocating any of these things directly, but if our motivations are to 'balance micros' because they either have too many advantages, or have abilities inappropriate for a heavy-RP environment, and something isn't done about the base problem, i.e. the sprite is too damn small, I firmly believe we're just going to end up back here eventually, and then another character option is potentially on the chopping block, ad infinitum.

Personally, I've always liked to think of Micros as have little specially distributed mass belts that have a sort of 'mass effect', which allows them to interact with objects and people much larger than them. Not a perfect solution, and clearly just an idea, but I find that the better of the middle roads, in this case, is one that still allows for fully functional micro crewmembers (as in, able to perform their chosen profession with only minimal alteration in procedure) rather than mice who can do nothing but squeak and skitter.

I assert again, that discretion allows for adjustment where appropriate; Hard Rules and Mechanics do not.

[Lobo-Branco]

<lots of stuff>

I think micros are supposed to be the most incompetent crew members of the station due to their size alright, but there are alternatives to turn them into productive crew members, like size guns, mechs, macrocilin, etc... Micros are supposed to be weak and prey. I have previously suggested nerfing micros to be that useless and then giving them prosthetic "mechs" but people complained about a "second body" but they didn't pay attention that in that situation with mechs (I use this word for a better understanding of the mechanics only, it would be a pretty crappy mech at that), the micro would be slow and have low max health, etc.