Should Micros be allowed to use guns?

[Silhouette]

<lots of stuff>

I think micros are supposed to be the most incompetent crew members of the station due to their size alright, but there are alternatives to turn them into productive crew members, like size guns, mechs, macrocilin, etc... Micros are supposed to be weak and prey. I have previously suggested nerfing micros to be that useless and then giving them prosthetic "mechs" but people complained about a "second body" but they didn't pay attention that in that situation with mechs (I use this word for a better understanding of the mechanics only, it would be a pretty crappy mech at that), the micro would be slow and have low max health, etc.

If I recall correctly, the problem with such extreme and drastic changes is that they require a great amount of effort to implement and may not even be possible, considering the limitations of the engine, as it is now. That's before getting into the messy subject of why a sci-fi game centered on fictional fetishism needs to have such realism thrust in at the cost of function and fun, and who gets to decide where the line gets drawn on any of that.

Personally, I think a compromise of 'fun' has to be drawn between 'realism/RP' and 'mechanics' on matters like this, but the topic is starting to derail a bit.

Suffice to say I don't think Micros should be 'unfun' to play, and therefore believe that rendering them completely inept is going overboard; To that end, I still think the base problem needs to be addressed, either primarily or along with any other solutions that are proposed, at least in some way.

[Wickedtemp]

The slippery-slope fallacy is rearing it's ugly head.

Nobody's going to get rid of micros completely. You can't say "Micros can't use guns anymore? WHAT'S NEXT? THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR RIGHT TO A CROWBAR? OR A GLASS OF WATER? OR A TOOLBOX?!" and think that it's a reasonable conclusion to jump to. This is a balancing issue. Not an "ANTI-MICROS" convention, so stop treating it as if it is.

I actually wouldn't support any drastic change in health. It'd make the hardest type of patient to treat also one of the most urgent cases. Doctors cannot see where a micro's health bar is at with the HUD. They can SEE it, but unless you look real fuckin' close, it's difficult to see what level it's at. Triage with micros is abysmal as it is. Lowering their health, as much as it makes sense balance-wise, would make it even more difficult... As for shrink rays, "This is a for-fun tool used for size change RP. Mechanical abuse of this feature will result in an OOC consequence. So don't.", maybe add that to the examine text.

Shouldn't micros actually be like that? They are tiny and all.

TLDR: Probably, but it'd give Medical a hard time with something they already have a hard time with. Micros are already difficult to treat, we don't really need to ALSO make them priority patients due to them being more fragile. Fragile-as-fuck/Difficult-to-click-on. Try to choose one of these. Mixing them just shafts Medical.
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Honestly, from an RP-Perspective, they probably should be. But from a gameplay perspective, it just makes the game needlessly more difficult for Medical.

Micros are a bother to treat as it is. Sometimes, having a micro patient goes a little bit like this:

Doctor Smith: "This patient needs Dexalin Plus!"
Doctor John: "I KNOW, HOLD ON! I CAN'T CLICK ON THEM!... Okay, got it. Finally."
Doctor Smith: " Alright, I'll analyze their vitals."
Doctor Smith hits the floor with the Health Analyzer.
Doctor Smith hits the floor with the Health Analyzer. "Fucking.."
Doctor Smith hits the floor with the Health Analyzer.
Doctor Smith scans Micro's vitals.
Doctor Smith "OKAY, SUCCESS... Vitals seem clear. Good to go."
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Micro's health bars, from the MedHUD, are too small to effectively even use, so you can't even really check that for a general health estimate. They're difficult to click once you DO get their vitals. If a micro is in critical condition, there's a very real chance that they could die, not because Medical wasn't prepared, but because the Medical Player is having issues with clicking on the Micro to save them. Sure, most people know about alt-clicking, but some people don't.

[Silhouette]

The slippery-slope fallacy is rearing it's ugly head.

Nobody's going to get rid of micros completely. You can't say "Micros can't use guns anymore? WHAT'S NEXT? THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR RIGHT TO A CROWBAR? OR A GLASS OF WATER? OR A TOOLBOX?!" and think that it's a reasonable conclusion to jump to. This is a balancing issue. Not an "ANTI-MICROS" convention, so stop treating it as if it is.

Pointing out fallacies is surely a fun pastime, but let's not get too carried away: I'd say you're conflating the slippery slope fallacy with something rather benign, considering that what I'm saying is tantamount to "If all you do is place a band-aid over the wound, you're probably still going to get an infection; Get it properly treated." and then stating that applying a similar mindset to this solution each time the issue pops up will result in a bad end.

Besides, I'm not treating it as an anti-micro convention, no matter how much I might joke in Discord about 'Micro rights' or 'Hate-Boners for Micros' because of experiences I've had on the server; I'm asserting that there is a basic, fundamental problem that isn't addressed by the proposed solution and because of that, it has the potential to reappear under a host of different and varying issues. Not that Ace and others have failed to respond to that, by the way.

While you might scoff at my suggestion about potential concern being raised over other items for Micros, such as toolboxes, you don't really seem to acknowledge that these things have already been brought up, here and in the chat. I hardly have ever seen the guns concern pop-up, but it's warranted its own topic on what to do about the matter, and other suggestions have been made in the past to nerf micros further, as Loco Branco even mentioned. It's hardly a slippery slope fallacy when I'm just pointing out the other concerns that have come from the same basic problem and asking if those things are going to get similar responses if the problem continues or gets worse.

Granted, as I mentioned, I'm generally opposed to the removal of options for any and all players without strong reasons, especially when alternatives are present. I mean, I get that it might seem like I don't have a whole lot of stake in this, given the circumstances, but I was asked to comment here, and I have my own opinion on the matter. I'm not gonna' push you to accept it, but trying to invalidate it with all the hand-waves won't really win me over, either, you know?

[Aces]

We keep saying that we have zero plans to nerf melee damage for micros because it's already countered by stomping mechanics. What makes sense isn't necessarily what is balanced, and in that regard, balance trumps realism.

Yet people keep bringing it up. Please stop. It's not a relevant argument. We've been very clear on this.

[Silhouette]

We keep saying that we have zero plans to nerf melee damage for micros because it's already countered by stomping mechanics. What makes sense isn't necessarily what is balanced, and in that regard, balance trumps realism.

Yet people keep bringing it up. Please stop. It's not a relevant argument. We've been very clear on this.

Just for clarity, what is this regarding?

I ask because the bulk of the last few posts have regarded banning micros from wielding, wearing, or using certain items because of advantages they might have, rather than implementing melee damage nerfs based on size, which I thought was ruled out in the primary post.

[Aces]

We keep saying that we have zero plans to nerf melee damage for micros because it's already countered by stomping mechanics. What makes sense isn't necessarily what is balanced, and in that regard, balance trumps realism.

Yet people keep bringing it up. Please stop. It's not a relevant argument. We've been very clear on this.

Just for clarity, what is this regarding?

I ask because the bulk of the last few posts have regarded banning micros from wielding, wearing, or using certain items because of advantages they might have, rather than implementing melee damage nerfs based on size, which I thought was ruled out in the primary post.

This thread has nothing to do with any nerfs to micros other than removing their ability to use guns. There is absolutely no plan at this time to include further nerfs, therefore, all this discussion you've been having is completely moot.

We can change melee damage based on character size, which is something we do eventually want to do, but that is a discussion for another day. Melee combat is already balanced enough for micros as far as I am concerned. The complaints we get more than anything else is always about guns. Not toolboxes, no e-swords, not welding tools, just guns. The difference is you can still shitstomp a micro attacking you just by walking over them, and the micro can still try to use size and agility to evade you. The fight is suddenly fair again. It's a massive difference with ranged combat. Like I said, micros can strike with impunity, and you can't even see if they have a gun.

[Aces]

The vote is in. Ability to use guns will be removed for micros. Locking the thread for now.