[Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

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[Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby Wickedtemp » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:35 pm

TLDR: A timer that prevents people from being resuscitated adds nothing to overall RP/gameplay and actively subtracts from both. We had evidently a year-long trial of what was effectively a removal and it went fine, so lets keep it that way.

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Hello! I play Medical. That's basically all I do here. I've played primarily on Bay12 (back when it was the NSS Exodus, before brainmed and Polaris), then played on Polaris when that split happened, and I've been playing here for about as long as I've been on Bay. We've gone through a lot of changes throughout that time. At first, we didn't even have defibrillators, and as soon as someone flatlined, that was that, and you had to clone. Then, eventually, AED-style defibrillators were added, and they were a tad bit OP in the sense that you could effectively bring someone back from nearly anything, as they forced the person back to life, if only for a single tick, so you could defib a patient while they were in cryo, let them heal for a tick before dying again, and just...keep doing it.

Then, our defibrillators were changed to the ones we see now, and while they were clunky to use at first, overall they're decent, and I quite like them. But, there's one thing that I've grown to be quite irritated at, and it's the timer. On other servers, this timer plays an important role. For example, on Polaris, cloning is a bigger deal. The vast majority of everybody does not get cloning scans at the start of each shift, so a non-decapitated body must be recovered in order for the cloning process to be attempted. Cloning attempts are more likely to fail due to a result of AFK players, whereas with our system, people who had disconnected (without leaving the round entirely via QuitTheRound button) are simply resleeved as being SSD and we throw them through a portal so they leave the round. Failed cloning attempts aren't handwaved as "oh well its no biggie, Central will use back-up data", and cloning is genuinely used as a last resort. The timer is important because there is an already present sense of urgency over a death of a crewmember, and this timer improves this urgency. It actively adds to the overal atmosphere and severity of the situation - someone is dead, and we don't have much time to save them, and if we fail, that's it, they're gone. A timer promotes good RP through this. Whether Medical succeeds or fails, there are plenty of roleplay opportunities and topics to bounce off and make use of.

...but here, it actively subtracts from the overall experience (futurewife helped me with the wording <3) because there is no real urgency in death. There can't be, due to the nature of the server. The most we can have is "oh, a nonconsensual death sucks I guess", and even that is suppressed for the sake of scenes and vore RP. And that isn't inherently bad. It just creates complications when death is trivialized and is quite literally made into nothing more than a minor and temporary inconvenience with our incredibly robust resleeving systems and OOC boundaries to prevent The Bad Feels from deaths that occur from scenes. Obviously very few people actually want that. But, in minimizing that, we've also minimized the impact of death as a whole. The worst that happens is "you feel ill for an hour", and that's it.

So, because there is very little urgency once a patient is dead, this timer has nothing to add to. Instead of creating any sense of urgency, it simply serves as an annoyance in most cases because now, in a server where there's usually very little for Medical to do, we can't even resuscitate a dead guy, and in some, actively prevents attempts at body recovery, because if someone's been dead for ten minutes, why bother trying? You already know it's pointless. We (medical players) can make our own urgency, but that becomes much, much harder when we know, as players, it really doesn't matter.

While the defib timer was removed (or at least increased to an absurdly lovely degree), I got to see, and participate in, actual rescue ops for explo and folks who were stuck in space or anywhere outside - and then we operated and resuscitated them(after asking in LOOC if they cared if they were resleeved or defibbed), and it was great fun for all. Medical got to do actual medical stuff and the dead person is back in the game. I'd like to think that's substantially better than... Medical got to hit the 'resleeve' button and nothing else, and the persons back in the game. The end result is just, simply put, more fun.

I know this is long, but hopefully it hits on the primary points. I'm sure folks will have issues with this in varying degrees, but I've thought about this a lot and I genuinely don't see any downsides. We have, after all, had this very same suggestion already in place, evidently, FOR LIKE A WHOLE YEAR, APPARENTLY.
Pupsalot07/27/2020
tfw defibs have been broken for like 5 months and nobody's noticed until now
wofl07/28/2020
everyone noticed defibs were broken just no one wanted to report because defibbing people is better gameplay than just resleeving them


So...yeah. We already know it works nicely.
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby Mr_Signmeup » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:39 pm

Ye, alright. Fair nuff.
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby runadacino » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:40 pm

As an added supporting bit for defib timer increase/removal -

Those characters that use soul-catcher as their backup implant (Catching pred), they need special means to defib them. With the timer, pulling off the "use sleevemate on soulcatchered person, put them back in their body" might just get it over 10 minutes. I do not think using soulcatcher as one's own backup implant should be punished like that.
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby Wickedtemp » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:42 pm

And to add a little bit, I know people might say "I mean, but there HAS to be one, even if it's generous, like maybe half an hour, but a timer is still necessary" - Why is it necessary? What actually makes it necessary? We've seemed to have been getting along quite nicely without one, so I'm not really seeing the necessity.

I also do not believe there should be any catches to this, outside of one. We could make it a requirement that the head-recapitation surgery be done if the patient has been dead for more than a set time. It's a surgery originally intended to be used to put heads back onto patients, but it still works even if the head never left the body. It involves messing with the brain-stem and fixing things there, and there's a debuff after that gets applied. The debuff may need to be tweaked to make it more akin to the 'resleeving sickness'. This has the benefit of both encouraging surgical operations, while not actively making anything harder or less fun. This could actually make things more fun because, well, it's surgery, and it isn't really one we get to use hardly ever.

So, we could do this, IF it's decided that there NEEDS to be a catch of some kind, I feel like this would be the ideal choice because it's a catch that encourages gameplay rather than simply being a catch for the sake of catches.
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby nerdass » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:46 pm

seems legit
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby nerdass » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:48 pm

so long as there's no shaming of players who decide to go the resleeve route because they don't want to force people to wait an hour while medical pokes around in their corpse to bring the magic numbers back into line, or no shaming of people who want to get back into the round and ask for resleeving in LOOC


because

y'know


that happens, and the people who do it know who they are.
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby nerdass » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:51 pm

ALSO, if this leads to medical making people wait extended amounts of time because "WE COULD FIND A BODY TO FIX MAYBE" after they're dead and the machine is like BEEP BEEP BITCHES, IT'S SLEEVING TIME


that's also gonna be a problem
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby Heroman3003 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:51 pm

Just a factual clarification, that the defib timer wasn't actually completely broken, but simply gave 10 times as much time compared to what was actually defined in config, which meant that unless the body wasn't discovered for hours, you had enough time to defib it anyway. Assuming Vorestation was using normal 10 minute timer, it would mean that the 'broken' timer was set at 1 hour and 40 minutes of time given to defib.
Last edited by Heroman3003 on Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby Scree » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:54 pm

an arbitrary hard timer instead of going off of damage and the condition of the heart/brain seems silly and doesn't really add anything anyway

it's not like this is a super serious game here, if the expedition makes it back to medbay then let them get back in the game
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Re: [Suggest!] We Don't Need a Defib Timer

Postby Heroman3003 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:55 pm

On a more opinionated side of things, I'm a bit worried about medical refusing to resleeve purely on 'principles' even when it would be preferred for patients, as well as would like to add a suggestion that if defib timers are to be gone (or set to overly high time), then the backup implant timer needs to be cut down as well. The main reason it is set to 15 mintues right now, as far as i'm aware is because that is approximate time medical has to defib the body before it's too late. There'd be nothing wrong with lowering it down to 5 or so minutes if defib timers don't exist at all.
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