Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Singo Peachen » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:04 pm

This all has to be done with the customer service truism in mind that 85% of users won't ever change their non-cosmetic settings even once while using an application.

And that said, even knowing that I occasionally like popping on as a ghost when almost everyone is taken and I can't get a scene so I can just watch and enjoy, and knowing that'll almost certainly not be viable anymore...

Given the reasons this exists, I'm still fine with it. I don't like it, but I understand why it's the default, and I appreciate that it's a thing that should exist.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby techtypes » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:20 pm

Personally and this is me, I think their should be some allowance of viewing a ghost at the end of the day is an observer and what ever they see is ooc pure and simple nothing they see can be used or treated as known in char for said ghost so even if said interaction was cannon... it is not cannon for you to use it IC at that point just like everything else you see as a ghost. I am all for a bit of privacy should one opt into it, main word "opt into". The nice middle ground for local ghost viewing is a good option to me for letting early gurgled people still enjoy what rp they where part of. The worse case I can see happening with this is people shaming people to ether tern it no or off or even denying RPing with someone do to it, why I could not say people do some strange things... I just know I am leaving it off because we are all have kinks here and everyone likely already know what you like as it is in your ooc notes.

As for logging all that happens on the server well they cant log everything as Looc still needs them to be closer and even as a ghost cant be everywhere and a lot of things that could have that kind of info you would not want to get out would be Looced but they could still be present. if said person giving the blackmail able info and did not know this was a thing they would Looc the info making it into an thing about informing your users rather then safety. With that in mind it would be better to have a extra type Looc choice purely for more privet things like here is my discord number or this or that but their is something for that, beyond has a DM system only needing your beyond name for the other to talk with you.

Having to remembering one more switch to toggle off on over top the numbers of micro keys, game mechanics, and oh medical is being called do to someone jumping down disposals again and guess you are the only medical on staff again. It might take zero effort to tern off but you might forget it is even there for years just left in the off position while acting like it is still "on". With or with out this, it is the internet regardless people should always has to be careful what they say online, SS13 or not. A major amount the responsibility of ones own safety falls on ones self most things we do anywhere is logged on something anymore, which the point i am making is at a point you cant always help them with any of your fancy switches or options it is a personal responsibility what info they put out and they already had options before this they just had to be made aware of them.

Clears throat sorry as someone how had things security wise like this happen I can get into bit of a rant and this hits a little too close to what happened back then. so please do not try advertise it like it is a security function.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby FartingOwl » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:26 pm

As someone who actually ghosts quite a bit to watch scenes, this change to subtles being unseeable by default is quite annoying, especially considering about half the scenes on the server are done in subtle. And the idea that having this on by default to preserve the "privacy" of scenes is silly. You can see that people are still posting in subtle with the "X does something too subtle for you to see." So all a ghost would have to do is hover over them and bam, suddenly they're seeing the entire scene. This just confuses me because, if you really really really didn't want anyone seeing your scene, why have the scene on virgo where people can still spy on you?

I don't mind this setting existing and even agree with having it around. But just not on by default

Edit: I understand that the people who don't watch scenes as a ghost (being most everyone) don't care or support it being on by default. But as a ghost who watches scenes quite a bit, I just think it will really suck the appeal out of ghosting to watch at all. Especially considering that from the way i've seen it, almost everyone doesn't understand what this talk is about, or just don't care enough to turn the subtles setting off
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby DegenerateCain » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:16 pm

I believe it should be off by default, be something you opt in for if you've not the liking to being watched; if I just played on the station and didn't read the discord/forums I'd never know about this change, even the message of the day on station isn't read by over half the people (after having told many people about Talon alarms being OOC); Heck, if I didn't read these threads I would've never known it either.

As for the "scene blackmail"; if that ever does happen I imagine the admin staff would BWOINK them right out of the community, discord and all, as we're all degenerates here and rule #1 is don't be a dick

((Defaulting it off helps people who have a voyeur fetish without wanting to disturb others by having an in game character or having to ghost over each individual scene UwU))
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Wickedtemp » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:41 pm

The person attempting blackmail doesn't give a fuck about what the Admins do to them. That's why it's better to be proactive instead of reactive.

Just turn the toggle off if it's an issue. We all learned the basic controls of SS13, how to use Subtle, how to Whisper, how to use Comms. I'm sure we can handle one tiny addition. Assuming it's actually announced properly instead of just spoken of once. I'm definitely siding with privacy concerns over "but i like watching people scene D: "
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby FartingOwl » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:33 pm

Wickedtemp wrote:The person attempting blackmail doesn't give a fuck about what the Admins do to them. That's why it's better to be proactive instead of reactive.

Just turn the toggle off if it's an issue. We all learned the basic controls of SS13, how to use Subtle, how to Whisper, how to use Comms. I'm sure we can handle one tiny addition. Assuming it's actually announced properly instead of just spoken of once. I'm definitely siding with privacy concerns over "but i like watching people scene D: "


Turning the toggle off changes nothing, it only makes it to where others can see my subtles, not to let me see all subtles
I'm starting to think people don't really understand what this change does
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby JoanRisu » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:37 pm

DegenerateCain wrote:As for the "scene blackmail"; if that ever does happen I imagine the admin staff would BWOINK them right out of the community, discord and all, as we're all degenerates here and rule #1 is don't be a dick


This assumes we actually find out about it in the first place.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby techtypes » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:02 pm

"one more thing" piles up and people can only one more thing so much before it becomes a bridge too far. what you forget is a simple thing called the human condition, i know a few people who still use the buttons to do whisper and subtle rather then micro, heck i am one of the people that do that and been playing ss13 for over five years as my memory sucks but i still manage.

If you are really that worried about log bots and blackmail i got the better answer for you and most might not like it.... whitelist only. make the staff have to check each person before they can join, or alternatively tell every single ghosts sorry you are dead you get to see nothing, no me/say/subtle/whisper and cant even see Loocs that might be meant for you because could really just be a bot. extreme examples... yes but ones that hold a logical connection to why you are saying we really need this one thing.

Again i want to be clear I do not care about ghosts seeing things as much as trying to call this a "security" function when again no it is not, if it was it would be yelling at you every five minutes about it being off for your own safety or force toggle it's self on every log out. fact is like i said the ways to keep your info safe is already there and far more effective, call it was it is a preference function.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Wickedtemp » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:44 pm

FartingOwl wrote:
Wickedtemp wrote:The person attempting blackmail doesn't give a fuck about what the Admins do to them. That's why it's better to be proactive instead of reactive.

Just turn the toggle off if it's an issue. We all learned the basic controls of SS13, how to use Subtle, how to Whisper, how to use Comms. I'm sure we can handle one tiny addition. Assuming it's actually announced properly instead of just spoken of once. I'm definitely siding with privacy concerns over "but i like watching people scene D: "


Turning the toggle off changes nothing, it only makes it to where others can see my subtles, not to let me see all subtles
I'm starting to think people don't really understand what this change does

..You're misunderstanding in that I wasn't misunderstanding what the change does. I think everyone is pretty much clear on what it does.

It's just that, uh...I'm not sure I really care a whole lot on the whole "but i want to watch other people scene" side of things? It really doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. I'm biased because I don't ghost to watch other people scene and I don't do scenes with spectators in mind. Whereas I totally understand why some folks would be uncomfortable at the idea of random ghosted people just watching the scene.

And I rank that uncomfortableness and desire for privacy above "okay but i like watching other people ERP" in terms of importance because one actually negatively impacts someone and the other is a mild inconvenience at its absolute worst. (Smol edit for clarification: This is why I think the privacy-bit being on by default is better. Risk-Assessment. I'd rather some people get mildly irritated that they can't see somebody else's subtle-scene instead of someone getting legit uncomfortable and creeped-the-fuck-out when they realize that their entire scene has been broadcasted and its highly likely there were people watching and jacking off or whatever over it. One is an annoyance, the other is a legitimate bad-feel)

Maybe the assumption that 80% of people are gonna just leave it as the default is correct. Maybe that results in those subtle-scenes being off the radar of ghosts. So what? If they actually wanted ghosts to see it, if that was an actual thought they have that they actively want to put into action, then they'd change it. And if it isn't, then they won't. Simply put, who cares? You're ghosted. It isn't your scene and I don't see why it's an issue that you can't see the parts of it that are in subtles. It's a bit different when you were actually involved prior to ghosting, but that's something you can work out with the person you're doing stuff with on a case-by-case. Or they can just use /me and /say.

Since this is ONLY for subtle/whisper, it's really not a huge deal. Since it's primarily people concerned that they can't spectate only the subtle parts of other people's scenes, I don't see it as a huge deal.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Wickedtemp » Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:14 am

techtypes wrote:"one more thing" piles up and people can only one more thing so much before it becomes a bridge too far. what you forget is a simple thing called the human condition, i know a few people who still use the buttons to do whisper and subtle rather then micro, heck i am one of the people that do that and been playing ss13 for over five years as my memory sucks but i still manage.

If you are really that worried about log bots and blackmail i got the better answer for you and most might not like it.... whitelist only. make the staff have to check each person before they can join, or alternatively tell every single ghosts sorry you are dead you get to see nothing, no me/say/subtle/whisper and cant even see Loocs that might be meant for you because could really just be a bot. extreme examples... yes but ones that hold a logical connection to why you are saying we really need this one thing.

Again i want to be clear I do not care about ghosts seeing things as much as trying to call this a "security" function when again no it is not, if it was it would be yelling at you every five minutes about it being off for your own safety or force toggle it's self on every log out. fact is like i said the ways to keep your info safe is already there and far more effective, call it was it is a preference function.


For some reason I didn't see this post before I actually made my most recent one, so.. doubleposting. And addressing these in order.

1) "One more thing before it piles up", etc.. It's called the Slippery Slope fallacy. You're looking at this as if it's going to cause a sudden shift down a steep hill and all of as sudden we're going to be adding countless features for extra security and extra steps and extra toggles, when that's simply not the case. This is about adding a single feature, and we can always simply discuss the next feature when it's added. It's all decided case-by-case. Nothing's steamrolling out of control here. I'm not sure how your mention of personal habits has anything to do with remembering to click a toggle one time and one time only.

2) So, a long time ago, this server used to be whitelist-only. This was when the server was much smaller than it is now, and back then it was actually possible to have a whitelist for the general server. When it comes to attempting to implement a whitelist currently, keep a few things in mind.
--A) Right now, at this time of writing, there are nearly 600 online users in the discord. 600. And that's just who's online right now. This says nothing of the folks who happen to be offline at this moment, and the stream of new players. How are the admins going to handle whitelisting all of these people?
--B) What kind of whitelist? What's going to be required? A photo ID? Just the BYOND Ckey? A discord username? An email? Not to sound rude, but I sure as hell don't trust everybody in Staff with my ID info. And any of the non-ID options are easily made and effectively pointless.

It's just not feasible with a community this size. If this was implemented, we'd likely see a sharp decline in playerbase, both from new players not wanting to give random folks that they've never met that run a fetish server their picture, and from current players who likewise definitely don't want to do that.

As for going harder on restricting what Ghosts can/cannot see, the reason that isn't being suggested is because there's such a thing as 'overkill', and this allows for a means of achievable privacy without hindering the gameplay of ghosted players. If they couldn't see anything at all, then that ruins the whole point of spectating.

3) Just because it doesn't include blaring alarms and pop-ups and actual physical locks and chains and a retina scanner and a dna-sequencer and a voice analyzer and a twenty-three digit password including at least one uppercase letter, a number, a random character, complete with a two-factor authenticator and the name of your favorite pet, doesn't mean it's not a security measure. You can have a door with a simple bolt lock, and a locked door covered in laser-beams guarded by a moat of crocodiles wearing sharks wearing more lasers and the entirety of the SAS on-guard to exterminate anyone they deem guilty of the thought-crime of 'wanting to unlock a door' in the immediate vicinity. They're both still locked doors. You don't have to go absolute-overkill.
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