Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Heroman3003 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:24 am

Let's be perfectly honest here. The whole blackamail situation could 100% still have happened even if this whole thing was already in place. Just wait till person is having a fully private scene, since the need for subtles there is gone and nobody uses them in those circumstance. And with that comes realization that as a solution to potential repeat of that story, this change is entirely pointless. I am not against it being there, but it being on is not going to solve anything, but will be annoying thing everyone is going to trip up on.

To add onto that. Most types of blackmail that could come from people having a scene here wouldn't even need as much as full scene logs, just the fact that person is even playing on the server at all can be more than enough depending on target.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby techtypes » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:03 am

Another thing I would like to say is, we are talking about subtle and whispers like they are DMs, they are not. Random joe can still see them if walk by and someone hits the enter key at the wrong time to see that subtle post of maybe something a bit graphic that might get sec called, I have walked by IC at that kind of moment more then a couple of times and where by the rules say I could act up on do to it being in public area I do not, as more often then not the subtle posts are done in PUBLIC areas like in the bar rather then the dorms and subtle is still treated as if it was IC actions which is why we have LOOC and OOC for you to OOC talk on OOC things OOCly.

We should not treat subtle and whispers like it is a DMs system as if you are really worried about security leakage you would not be talking about it on a place like SS13 where a mouse could still hear your subtle if in the right place but rather in proper DMs that again as some forget beyond provides them in the client should you lack something like discord.

And yes we have that massive amount of people on the discord server which while the whitelist was an example of something extreme i well continue with that thought. current people with a Ckey already known to the server would be given bit of leeway to skip the step but new people have to give some proof they are not a bot. answer a few question maybe even in voice just to prove they are a person while avoiding anything too personal. is it a prefect system? no, just like this toggle is less then perfect.

I get some want to view SS13 like a glorified chat room, and to a level they are right. I am fine with you setting it so ghosts cant see your stuff if you are really that worried about someone kink-shaming or just being a dick... some people get off to some odd stuff and i personally believe heavily it should be opt into rather then opt out as like said before..... easy to tern it on should you prefer it, and the middle option of proxy viewing is nice as well for people shy but not that shy.

I well stick to what i said as someone who had dealt with some security leaks happen to them in the past that did some bad things to me IRL, treat it like a preference setting not a security setting, opt into not opt out. We should be telling people to not post anything personal on the server that do not wish to possibly be viewed by random people they hardly know.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Scree » Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:24 pm

I'm just gonna state for the record that I don't particularly care for the supposed rights of people that just want to ghost and observe scenes. The players I care about are the people actually playing, so the fact that you can't see what other people are doing while you're hovering around lurking is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

The biggest issue that I can see this causing is if people like to give post-digest messages and feel like doing it in subtles for some reason, like they're in the bar and the HoS is at the next table or something, in which case all it takes is an LOOC for one player, and a click and a ctrl-up-enter for the other.

I was open to the idea of having the default be set to visible, but I'm slowly getting convinced the other way, mainly because (1) it still gives a message that people can LOOC about to new players, and (2) everyone that's played since it went live has had their pref saved anyway and changing the default won't do jack to fix it now. Stable, horse, bolted.

Also if you called security because you happened to get lucky and catch a subtle post and tried to argue "it's a public scene" then you'd have every admin up your ass with an emery board boot, as well as both players in the scene in question, so it's probably a bad idea.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Heroman3003 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:01 pm

Well, LOOCing in public location because you couldn't see a subtle still would basically announce the thing that is happening to everyone regardless, so that part isn't really solving anything. And I also feel like it being set to default would long-term just discourage any newer people from doing any sort of post-digestion thing at all. Just because a ton of people already had it set doesn't meant that it should stay the default for everyone coming after them.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Mr_Signmeup » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:36 pm

When you're in the dorms, you usually don't use subtles and whispers to begin with. Since, y'know... it's 'private'. So, having it on by default doesn't really affect anyone unless you constantly do RPs in subtles.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Wickedtemp » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:38 pm

Scree wrote:The players I care about are the people actually playing, so the fact that you can't see what other people are doing while you're hovering around lurking is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.


^^^

If you're ghosting, you aren't involved, it's not your scene.
If it WAS your scene, or one you were involved in, and you want to see how it ends up... Communicate. Ask the scene partner(s) if they're okay with turning the toggle off.

I genuinely cannot see how this creates any real problem. Its only for whispers and subtles, regular emotes and speech aren't hidden, and the only two affected groups are:

- People who died midscene, who can just talk with the scene partner(s) or get logs after the round or whatever, so there are ways to resolve any minor issues that might come up.

- People who aren't involved in the scene and just want to watch. In which case what do they even have to be mad about, the server doesn't revolve around them. It is literally a non-issue. It's not their scene so their inability to see it doesn't matter. Watch someone else.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby techtypes » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:05 am

How about I give a uncommon but still could happen example... someone got annoyed with a lot of Looc chatter around them earlier in the shift and terned off Looc but forget to tern it back on. Someone later gets gurgled by them a bit early and said scene is still going leaving the prey to eather ooc yell with the pred characters name for all to see and the inevitable number of people saying IC in OOC or just accept they are left out now and stuck waiting till medical clones them.

It is true though one could just ask for the logs if the person dose not leave without making a log well before they could ask, maybe said pred had to hurry up the rp a little before logging off so they just did one big post gurgle post right at the tram or teleporters. RL is pain and likes to pop up when you lest expect it, the thing being unknown to most and just easily forgotten means at the end you will slowly find more people turning it off anyways and leaving it off.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby Wickedtemp » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:31 pm

techtypes wrote:How about I give a uncommon but still could happen example... someone got annoyed with a lot of Looc chatter around them earlier in the shift and terned off Looc but forget to tern it back on. Someone later gets gurgled by them a bit early and said scene is still going leaving the prey to eather ooc yell with the pred characters name for all to see and the inevitable number of people saying IC in OOC or just accept they are left out now and stuck waiting till medical clones them.


https://github.com/VOREStation/VOREStation/pull/5330
Communicate and shit

Edit: Also still if the person you were scening with has the toggle set to invisible for ghosts, AND they have LOOC off, AND they're exclusively using subtles, iunno. I still feel like that while I can understand a mild irritation, being a ghost means not really being in the game and the person you were scening with prior is under no obligation to ensure that you can see future posts for your enjoyment. I don't see this happening so often that it becomes a genuine thorn in somebody's enjoyment of the server unless literally all they ever do is spectate and gawk at other peoples RP. And even then it's not going to hinder them too much, given how much of the RP on-server is going to be in standard say/me.
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Re: Whi/Subtles Ghost Visible should default to visible

Postby techtypes » Wed May 06, 2020 9:25 am

So, I had a thought that could answer a few issues I have let the person decide. you remember that screen you get about anonymous chat when you first join asking if you want to hid your Ckey in dead chat and such, why not use a thing like that. A simple extra screen asking if you want to hid your more subtle action from ghosts, It lets people know this is a thing and lets "them" pick what they want rather then someone assuming what people want. I would still be all for the third option idea though as more options are nice.
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