Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

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Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Mewchild » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:26 pm

I'll start off this thread with this: https://github.com/VOREStation/VOREStation/pull/3160

This change was implemented in February, and was the change that made it so that, as the title says, it is a generally poor idea to reuse a syringe. The change has been in for nearly four months now, and I'd like to discuss and collect feedback on it.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby LiquidFirefly » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:39 pm

My thoughts on the matter have been loudly and clearly put since day one, but I'll restate anyway. I think that the change was pointless, and added nothing but tedium to the game for everyone involved. It caused more infections, the worst ailment you could have, more clicks to the unbelievably common practice of applying medicine to patients, and more items that you, as a doctor have to carry around. These drawbacks reap no reward in return, as the change was applied simply because in real life, if you use a syringe you have to throw it away (Or rather, just the tip, so it's still inaccurate even after the change, making it entirely worthless). Realism isn't a consideration that should be taken seriously in a video game (especially not SS13), as we're playing for fun, not for realism. The previous syringes were entirely fine how they were. There was nothing wrong with them. Restating my opinion after four months of waiting, "Revert this."
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Draycu » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:46 pm

I personally enjoy the realistic touch that using a metal needle on someone would lead to an infection in another person. I also enjoy the syringe case, and generally didn't run into too much trouble with running out of safe syringes.

However, I feel I'd like to request that a syringe be possible to recap through an alt click after drawing up some medicine, to at least have one prepared for quick use. The current system where any uncapped syringe quickly gains an infection rate before being used on anyone is a bit much, I must say. Removing the gain of infection upon uncapping a syringe without actually injecting a person would be nice if recapping a syringe is not a viable option.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby MaximumOverlizard » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:54 pm

What I think it adds: Realism. I don't think it's honestly that big of a boost to the quality of RP. Explained below.

What I think it takes away: A small amount of prep time. Typically, storage space of a syringe case, two if you're expecting to do a lot of injections. A couple of clicks per injection (Maybe open the container with the syringe case, instead of holding a syringe behind your ear. Take syringe out by clicking it. Click to pop cap. Without syringe cases, it's just (open container) and take syringe. So effectively, always +1 click, +2 if you held syringes behind your ear. Though you can still hold capped syringes behind your ear outside of the case).

What I think are more abstract design issues: It adds a penalty for failure to know the exact syringe reuse rules. There's no noticeable benefit (When you do this right, X advantage). All of what it adds is in the form of inventory clicking. This means that the patient and bystanders basically never see it or interact with it unless it's fucked up. AND OH BOY WHEN IT'S FUCKED UP, IT'S BAD, because Infections are pretty fucking savage. So, how much of an RP quality boost is it? Not a lot. It doesn't add something interactive. There's not a lot to do with your syringes. Most people couldn't tell you an impact that the syringe change has had on their RP pretty much at all, except in the form of "Oh god, I got an infection."

What I think should happen: delet this Revert the change and let people mention in their emotes that they're uncapping or taking out fresh syringes if they're that concerned with it.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby snowtg » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:58 pm

I never thought of this as such a controversial change, as one could always have someone take medicine in a cup, and the only time you really NEED a syringe is when they're unconscious. I personally enjoy the change, and a syringe case felt nice to carry around, perhaps pre-loaded with different medicines. It was never tedious or anything, and I thoroughly enjoyed the realism of it. Infections have always been a thing you have to avoid by medical staff, and personally, I don't see why this one extra layer of caution should be rolled back. Medical in VOREStation is slow, so it's no problem to take it slow as a doctor and take the steps necessary to do something right. Extra clicks don't bother me as long as it's a mechanic that's realistic and true to the SS13-Style gameplay of something that borders between realism and cartoonishness.

In short, I would only have a problem with this change if it was adding steps to medical for the sole sake of adding steps and tediousness to medical, but since this is grounded in realistic medicine, I enjoy this change, and it helps with my immersion into the game. I've played a doctor and a CMO on this server for a solid three to four months now and it's been fine by me.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby LiquidFirefly » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:23 pm

snowtg wrote:I never thought of this as such a controversial change, as one could always have someone take medicine in a cup, and the only time you really NEED a syringe is when they're unconscious.


So what you're telling me is that the solution is to ignore the change altogether?

snowtg wrote:I personally enjoy the change, and a syringe case felt nice to carry around, perhaps pre-loaded with different medicines. It was never tedious or anything, and I thoroughly enjoyed the realism of it. Infections have always been a thing you have to avoid by medical staff, and personally, I don't see why this one extra layer of caution should be rolled back. Medical in VOREStation is slow, so it's no problem to take it slow as a doctor and take the steps necessary to do something right. Extra clicks don't bother me as long as it's a mechanic that's realistic and true to the SS13-Style gameplay of something that borders between realism and cartoonishness.


Infections are hands down, the worst ailment in the game, constant status messages, a long span of time both to take it's course, and to heal. During all of that you could be doing something infinitely more valuable with your time, but you're not, because you either got infected, or you're a doctor stuck with one. Simply because something is slow does not mean that it should be made slower, keep in mind that people are here to RP, not to sit around and mechanically make sure they didn't accidentally give someone late stage tuberculosis because they double tapped their syringe.

Draycu wrote:I personally enjoy the realistic touch that using a metal needle being injected into someone would lead to an infection in another person. I also enjoy the syringe case, and generally didn't run into too much trouble with running out of safe syringes.


Okay, but does any of that streamline your gameplay or make it less tedious? I fail to see the joy in knowing that there's a .01% chance of the worst ailment in the game if you accidentally click someone twice with a syringe, or forget that you're not playing on the server with the good syringes (That being anywhere but here). Carrying around the syringe case also just ends up taking up a pocket slot, something that is typically held by a PDA, or a flask, or another RP item that's far more enjoyable and usable in normal RP.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Seiga » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:53 pm

I never liked the idea of adding more pitfalls that serve to punish people who're trying to learn medical and don't know the ins and outs of our codebase, especially people operating on knowledge from other servers. Most directly competing games don't change basic mechanics, because you'd alienate players who came from different games.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Mattias Cauthon » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:57 pm

I feel that the 'realism' that the change brings is shallow and doesn't add much to the experience, especially when we have an item floating around that touts a self sterilizing needle. I mean if the argument that we wouldn't use it because it would be too flagrant of an expense or anything of the like and that wouldn't be realistic, I feel the scope should be widened, we have people handing out size guns to the crew on the regular, pretty advanced and wild stuff, in fact we can find that kind of stuff literally lying in piles of garbage, and we have nanomachine factories in our head that can do even crazier things. The NIF is also so common and so prevalent it's not like there's any shortage to advanced technology, and in addition there's no real way for anyone to fight a minor infection outside of medical intervention.

Last time I got an infection from a puncture wound I just spent a few days getting over it and letting the injury heal, not festering into the very image of pestilence in a single sitting. I feel that people who stumble over this block and accidentally grant someone an infection that usually just leads to more headache for more people doesn't really facilitate an air of reality. Hospitals do take a lot of precautionary measures, yes, that's how hospitals work and operate, they don't share needles, because it could pass on blood borne pathogens, illnesses and diseases from one patient to another. I mean if needles are capable of passing on a life threatening infection, then what's the deal with our surgical implements? That would be the highest risk of infection and they do need to be sterilized on the regular, are they made of this self sterilizing substance as well, why were needles skipped over when it came to that pass? Also when's the last time you heard about someone dying of an infection from a needle that was shared, you usually hear about them catching something much worse, you know, a disease like hepatitis or HIV, or you hear about them dying from overdose or something. I think transmitting a sickness would be far more realistic, but nobody on the station gets sick and when they do get sick its from an infection, usually from burns or from these needles, and they're always life threatening unless treated. I think there's a lot of things to be worked over if we want to be truly realistic.

So my final thoughts are, it was a kind of neat idea, but ultimately is a shallow stab at realism and provides nothing else but a revisit to the medical bay for another injection, this time of spaceicillin.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Wickedtemp » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:05 pm

snowtg wrote:I never thought of this as such a controversial change, as one could always have someone take medicine in a cup, and the only time you really NEED a syringe is when they're unconscious.


So, ignoring how laughably wrong this is...

I like the change, overall. When it was added initially, I hated it because it meant having to either take everything out of my medical webbing and replacing it with syringes or carrying around a full of them. When syringe cases were added, I enjoyed it. I feel like they should have been added with the change in the first place.

But, yeah. I admit, I don't think it makes sense from a "We're star trek scifi with FTL travel and teleportation and self sterilizing implanters and hyposprays and we also have 100% effective antibiotics and sterilizers... ... but nah syringes are diiiiirty.", but I personally enjoy it.

As far as avoiding infections, it isn't that hard. I've literally never given someone an infection from syringes, and I can find the data to prove it. Just don't be stupid and you'll never cause an infection.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Nanaki » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:11 pm

To provide a bit of background, I learned medical on Baystation originally, which, as K't once said, is the Dark Souls of medical systems in how brutal it is. When I initially came here, my kit consisted of an advanced first aid kit, two stasis bags, a belt of medicine that consisted of Inaprovaline, Dylovene, Tramadol, Dexalin Plus, Bicardine, and KeloDerm, I had a health analyzer in my pocket, and a single syringe behind my right ear. All my equipment changes since then have been adaptations due to how different this server's medical system is.

The biggest thing I am not a fan of with syringes is that they add an additional checkbox for paramedics to take with them, as seven syringes (one behind the ear and six in the case) is not enough for either expeditions or having more than a few patients, so, you end up having to take a box with you, and paramedics already have a fairly decent-sized checklist on chems to take with them. A bag of holding is probably necessary for SARs who need to pack extra syringes and extra meds, since SARs do not have the luxury of being able to easily return to medbay in most expeditions. The verdict on Quantum Pads, which was supposed to ease expedition travel, is that they are too complex to set up in most shifts.

Overall, I would not be unhappy to see the syringe change reverted, but if it does stay, here are my concerns:

- The exact mechanics behind them are opaque and not written down anywhere, and there is a lot of confusion as a result.
- Infections are extremely brutal, deadly, and quick, I would actually recommend making it take slightly longer for infections to reach a lethal stage, it advances too quickly from 'a slight itch' to 'Not even carthatoline can save you' levels of toxin buildup.
- There should be a grace period, maybe 15-30 seconds, before the infection ticker starts building up. It should be possible to inject 30-45u of medicine, if needed, into a patient without constantly tossing syringes, and fixes silly things like double-clicking a 15u dose accidentally infecting someone. Have the grace period only apply so long as you are injecting the same person. Perhaps give syringes a little light that changes color (and gives a little red notification) when the grace period ends.
- There should be some alternative for SARs, because carrying around one or two boxes of syringes is clunky. Maybe special syringe cases that cleans and sterilizes syringes inserted into them, or Hyposprays if you feel lazy? SARs do not have any unique job equipment of their own, since it is established that both the compact defibrillator and the rescue rig belong to the paramedics and not the SARs.
Last edited by Nanaki on Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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