Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Scree » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:13 am

Part of the syringe mechanic includes the syringe remembering a list of people it's been used on.

Honestly, I'd not mind at all if the infection chance was tied to "are you using this needle that's been used on a different person" rather than merely "has this needle been used in the past, even on yourself". Yes, IRL needles get dull with use, but my gut tells me that injecting with a dull needle would be better represented by giving you a small amount of brute damage and a chance of breaking the needle (as if it were used on harm intent) rather than giving you an infection in and of itself.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby CameronWoof » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:54 am

Syringe management has been one of the biggest pain points during my transition from other codebases to Virgo. Not being able to keep labeled syringes for more than a single use, the inability to inject a patient with more than one shot of medicine with any one syringe, and the constant scramble to find a disposal chute so that I'm not leaving used sharps around has been a real headache added to an already very complex medical system.

I like the idea of the syringe case, but it's definitely a solution implemented to solve its own problem. I think that the syringe case being able to sterilize sharps put inside would be the best option, as it preserves the risk of overusing a single syringe (and, as I assume was the original intent, funnels players towards medbay) but allows medical players to stay organized and efficient.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby James Holder » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:50 pm

LiquidFirefly wrote:
James Holder wrote:I actually like the disposable syringes, because using the same needle over and over until it breaks is just weird.

James Holder wrote:I've been playing less, and I get a mk2 hypospray as CMO.


Just gonna link those two a little bit. Just speculation.


No link. I've been throwing away needles since I started playing medbay, long before you actually had to.

LiquidFirefly wrote:
James Holder wrote:Also, maybe put a couple mk1 hyposprays in the SAR lockers. It's easy to go through 2 syringe cases out there, and needing to carry an entire box and leave a trail of needles in your wake is just silly.


So, your proposition is to make specific people ignore the change altogether to make the change more bearable?


No, that isn't my proposition. That's a strawman.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Wickedtemp » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:25 am

Syringes are being given a 20 second grace period before the infection counter starts if you only inject the same patient.

https://github.com/VOREStation/VOREStation/pull/3942
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Mewchild » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:16 am

If that PR is approved, of course. It has a lo off balance changes.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby CameronWoof » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:22 am

A welcome change, but still misses the mark. If this mechanic absolutely has to stick around, Medical should have good methods to deal with it. The syringe case sterilizing inserted syringes would fit this bill.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Natje » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:12 pm

I greatly dislike the syringe infection system as a whole. While it's a neat system and all, it's as has been said before: An irritating tedium that've brought people away from playing medical.
This change and a lot of other things had brought even myself away from playing medbay for a long time. And I keep hearing mentions of how veteran medical players don't play medical anymore...

GEE, I WONDER WHY.

I may have ended up returning to medical after a long break, but that doesn't in any way mean I've accepted this change and all the crap that've been brought upon the department over time. I would be happy to see this reverted, because while it is a neat idea, in practice it's tedious nonsense that doens't make sense in any way; not even 'realism'.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby LiquidFirefly » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:21 pm

James Holder wrote:
LiquidFirefly wrote:
James Holder wrote:Also, maybe put a couple mk1 hyposprays in the SAR lockers. It's easy to go through 2 syringe cases out there, and needing to carry an entire box and leave a trail of needles in your wake is just silly.


So, your proposition is to make specific people ignore the change altogether to make the change more bearable?


No, that isn't my proposition. That's a strawman.


Kay, so, first of all, if I'm literally quoting your argument, and pulling a point from it, that isn't a strawman. A strawman is if I completely fabricate someone's point about it, and say something like, "UHHH, ME LIKE THE SYRINGE CHANGE, ITS EXTRA CLICKS KEEP ME FROM DRAGGING MY FACE ALONG KEYBOARD IN BOREDOM IN THE MEDICAL BAY. INFECTION IS SOMETHING I LIKE DEALING WITH, UNGA BUNGA." That's a strawman, thinly veiled, clearly wrong, nobody actually holds that stance because it's too stupid to acknowledge. Quoting something from your argument, and pulling a logical conclusion from it is not a strawman or a fallacy. My quote is even framed as a question as if to clear up intent. However, you cannot argue that giving specific people (sars) the hyposprays wouldn't make them simply ignore the change because they have something infinitely better and less tedious. Whether that proposition had that intent or not, that is what would happen as a result.

Natje wrote:I keep hearing mentions of how veteran medical players don't play medical anymore...

GEE, I WONDER WHY.

HMM, I DO TOO, WHY DID SO MANY MEDICAL PLAYERS, INCLUDING MYSELF, QUIT FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.
<3 nat. Agree completely.

Wickedtemp wrote:Syringes are being given a 20 second grace period before the infection counter starts if you only inject the same patient.

https://github.com/VOREStation/VOREStation/pull/3942


That PR also has a lot of garbage in it. Making healing chems 2/3rds as effective, (barely)buffing the far less effective medkits which in a way just perpetuates whatever is going on with this change, etcetera. All that pull is doing is trying in vain to pull people away from chems and push them towards something only meant for and only effective on minor injuries, or for sealing injuries. I do not know what the developer issue with chems is, but continually hearing about it and seeing changes proposed to make medical continually less potent is stupid.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Heroman3003 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:44 pm

I stand by idea that syringe change was bad. It was implemented on account of realism, but why make realistic syringes giving infections... when infections themselves have almost 0 realism to them. The injections now have this added tedium, and I do not count Syringe Cases or suggested 20 second grace period as anything good, as those are only proof of how annoying, tedious and unbearable the change is. Those are attempts at making it bearable, they're not part of change itself. And if only we got SOMETHING worthwhile out of this change other than medical players feeling like they're getting shafted, but no. It wasn't a 'new necessary step for attachment surgery' in return for getting bioprinter. It was a straight up nerf to syringes for absolutely no reason. Its been long and STILL injecting things into containers with them is broke or annoying, dosing injections is also annoying and that's just the 'one injection, all 15 units' part. Infections themselves are other thing. New players come to medical and have no idea about something thats so basic and shared everywhere can cause space STD's here. Or non-medical players trying to use those? There is no proper warning outside medical guide and even if there was, the whole infection thing remains nothing more than annoying tedium, added for sake of realism, which is awful reason to add/change/remove something when its the ONLY reason.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby DrYeehaw » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:01 pm

Okay let's take a look at this PR why don't we?


Advanced Trauma Kits treat 7 damage per application, and are now used only once per body part (instead of once per wound like gauze)
T-they already do that Im pretty sure. Even if Im wrong it doesn't end up saving more than 2-3 trauma kits at the absolute most per person. Sure the extra healing is nice but there's a reason we dont use Trauma kits to fix all wounds.

Advanced Burn Kits treat 7 damage per application
Same thing.

Medical Rescue Suit injector now has 20 units per chem, and uses Inaprovaline, Dylovene, Paracematol, and Dexalin
This only effects Paramedics and SAR, Im not either so I have no opinion here. Seeing as who came up with this patch Im going to say it's an upgrade to the job.

Various blatant chem nerfs
Hahaha. Seriously? We're nerfing the only legitimate way to healing damage? Say we're in another event with combat. You only have so many ways to heal someone with the Kits. Now then I'm making an exception for Dexalin and Alkysine. That makes Dexalin something besides "shitty Dex+" and Alkysine is perfectly fine in smaller doses. Also exception is the one being moved to tier 2, honestly I dont use it enough for me to feel qualified to talk on it.

All pre-filled syringes start capped.
No comment. It's just for flavor.

There is now a 20-second grace period where infection chance is 0 (Note: Using syringes on multiple people renders grace period null and void)
So let me get this right. We STILL have it where it's an issue for using syringes on the same person? Just now postponed? As someone who has rather weak showing blood veins, I've seen docs continually take the needle in and out of my arm over the span of several minutes (yes it hurt like hell because of it, but we aren't talking about pain or not) and I didn't get an infection. I can understand for different people but not on the same person. HIV doesn't work this way.


Anyways, looking at this I'd like to mention that this only benefits one job in medbay while hurting all the rest of the department. Im not like...furious at the changes presented but I feel like it's a 1 step forward for 3 steps backward sort of thing. Trauma packs are rationed now and unless they're put back in as standard loadout I see no reason why this doesn't hurt medbay more than helps. (Can you say "Oh look, the expedition took all the trauma packs again" three times fast?) So while this change comes from a good place and doesn't leave me disgusted with the current state of affairs, I'm going to say it does more harm than good. So no, this should not be implemented in any way.


Here's my thing Im going to make at a point for everyone calling for chem nerfs: Stop. Hold your horses about "Oh Bicardine and Dermaline are too strong". Sure, they are. However, there's no real alternative. Don't punish the one useful style of gameplay for new players before adding something viable first. If you wanna nerf, first give a change of ONLY buffs and lets see if that changes the meta in a positive way.
Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said..."I'm too drunk to taste this chicken."
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