Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby DrYeehaw » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:49 pm

TL;DR: Yes, change it. Not only does it add a needless step to easily create something massive out of nothing, but it was a controversial event at the time that caused a lot of medbay to lose interest. However, the damage is already done, so ultimately reverting it needs an optimistic mind.

Firstly, I'd like for it to be known that I'm a traditionalist. If something isn't broke, fixing it is just going to see me screeching like an ADHD riddled howler monkey off of his medication and instead hopped up on a mixture of mountain dew, meth and WD-40. Yes, even if it actually is a better change.

However, I personally do not believe that this is one of those better changes. While yes, without a shadow of a doubt it's more realistic, I'd also argue that the patch did more harm than good by basically introducing HIV into the world of SS13. I still remember my first experience with it, doubletapping Bicard into a patient, the CMO at the time tapped me on the shoulder afterwards and said "You know you just infected them, right?" "What? No way! It was the same person!" Sure enough, they came back near dead from infections.

Now admittedly, I've heard that's been edited and at least that part is out of the way, which admittedly solves that issue. Frankly for the actual coding itself it was simply a moderate pitfall for new players, and honestly from a mechanical perspective I'd stop foaming at the mouth if you could reuse syringes on the same Ckey. The only time it was a serious issue was when players were alone in medbay and had to manage 3-4 patients in critical condition.


But the REAL reason I so hate this change isn't because of the mechanics itself. The event on how it was approved is one which, frankly, crushed mine and a lot of veteran Medbay players's willingness to continue the department. Of every department onstation, without a doubt for virgo Medbay is the hardest. There's no guaranteed break like after engis can finish the engine or the SEC officers can finish dealing with the crime, it's you're on duty and on the clock at all times. And frankly, it's hard. A job if you will. I remember spending 3-4 hours on shifts, sitting alone in medbay and thinking "How the hell am I lonely in a VIDEOGAME" and I know im not the only one thinking that. When the change was announced, it was sort of presented in a "Hey what do you think about this change?" idea with about 30% for and 70% against, even if you disagree with me on the numbers you can at least agree it was controversial with at least a small lead against. HOWEVER, after only a few minutes, it was announced it was going to be added, regardless of the opinions of those playing. Right as soon as the round ended. So, less than 50 minutes after the change was ANNOUNCED to rather angry medbay players over basically being told that this was happening with or without them. The hardest department hadn't wanted anything harder! It hadn't asked for this! Had the server not crashed so badly from the ensuing update that it had to be pulled back (and discussion did not pick back up on the topic between due to how toxic it had become) we would have seen an idea presented becoming reality in less than an hour. For a lot of medbay, it felt like this was going to happen even if 100% of the department had been against it, but frankly if I cover that any further in detail i'd simply be finger pointing.

Im not going head hunting here, however as nice as realism is, the admins still hold by the opinion "This is SS13 first and vore second". While I don't myself agree with that sentiment, I will hold them to it. As a game, the biggest thing is fun, and frankly while this captured more "immersion" by removing agency from the doctors at hand (noticing as how NO doctor does a /me post about uncapping a syringe and injecting anything anymore) all it's done is add another step mechanically for new players to deal with and removed one of the best ways for someone at a distance to spot a good roleplaying doctor. That, along with the mild state of disenchantment at the developers that formed from this makes me believe that removing this is the best course of action.

Now, being fair, the damage has already been done, and besides removing an obstacle for new players little would be healed on day one. Still, I'd rather heal the scars of past interactions than accept defeat for the department.
Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said..."I'm too drunk to taste this chicken."
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby ulviiriara » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:24 pm

Personally, I kinda stopped playing medical after this feature was added. I just. I felt like "Wow, the admins must HATE medbay or something, because this feels like a punishment for doing something that they did not like.". It kinda made it so I can't triage as good as I could before, as I either have to use pills to cover a bunch of people, and those take what feels like 20 seconds to work, or multiple cases or boxes of needles, because after you use one you toss it, and if they need three meds, and there are three injured people, thats nine needles all in one go. While its not the most common thing, it does happen, especially if Xenoarch is working or a combat even happens. And if you happen to be the only doctor on charge, this turns into a case of treating the most injured first, and hoping that you can switch and fill needles faster then the others are dying.

All in all this is a change I think that, if not reverted, hyposprays should be able to be made by science, because if they are able to make them, they never do, and since its likely people don't KNOW that they can, if they can, perhaps that should be made common knowledge.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby ktccd » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 am

I don't like it. It's not against realism or anything, I always assumed we had the same sterilisation tech for our syringes as our surgery tools anyway.

We need to figure out some way to get more people to try medbay, not less. Now that I think about it, I've been playing very little medbay myself, but I'm not sure if I could blame that only on this change, that might be part of a bigger design flaw.

My gripe with it has already been posted here and it's that it doesn't add anything to the RP interaction, but removes it. You don't notice a doctor uncapping and preparing a syringe when they inject you and they won't emote it either.
So the only thing it adds is a hysterical pitfall for newbies, another reason to scare off someone from trying medbay.




Phew.... first time I post about an issue on a server... Normally I just ignore the problems until I quit the server out of frustration...
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby James Holder » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:25 pm

Welp, had to make an account for this. Your registration screen calls this Vulpine Hollow, btw.

So I actually like the disposable syringes, because using the same needle over and over until it breaks is just weird. I don't like the state it was in when it was merged though, and I'm not sure if the issues have been fixed. One of the previous posts said that something has been fixed, but it didn't go into the details. It's been a long time since I've used a needle on Virgo because I've been playing less, and I get a mk2 hypospray as CMO.

Anyway, the problems I'm talking about are how accidental double-clicks count as multiple injections for infection chances, when in the past multiple clicks were regarded as a single injection for RP. A little bit of lag could cause trouble or at the very least freak out a medical player because they might have just infected their patient. The second problem is the spam messages caused by the syringe trying to inject an additional 10u of medicine into a 5u container, such as an autoinjector. If these issues still exist, they really need to be fixed. It makes the syringes seem buggy, and it adds annoyance to a complicated system.

Also, maybe put a couple mk1 hyposprays in the SAR lockers. It's easy to go through 2 syringe cases out there, and needing to carry an entire box and leave a trail of needles in your wake is just silly.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Kotetsu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:15 pm

I firmly believe this change was always a bad idea, and since it's implementation, I've stopped playing medical on Virgo. I could go over all my points, but I'd basically be repeating DrYeehaw's post.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Dhaeleena » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:55 pm

"without a shadow of a doubt it's more realistic"

Absolutely nowhere in hell it is more realistic. Injecting someone with a needle and having full body gangrene ten minutes later is not realistic, If we go to the point of realism you would have to sterilize the skin with iodine first and IN REAL LIFE doctors may have to stab you multiple times with a needle if they cant find the vein. This has happened to me when i had to get a full blood exam, Its not something out of the ordinary. Not to mention how space man have literally no immune system and cant fight back against the weakest of infections like any normal body would.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby James Holder » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:15 pm

I replaced the inaprovaline in some autoinjectors last shift, and the needle still tries to inject over and over when there's more than 5 units in the syringe. Also, it sounds like double clicking is still a problem.

So the needles are buggy. I think they need reworked at least.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby Wickedtemp » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:27 pm

James Holder wrote:I replaced the inaprovaline in some autoinjectors last shift, and the needle still tries to inject over and over when there's more than 5 units in the syringe. Also, it sounds like double clicking is still a problem.

So the needles are buggy. I think they need reworked at least.


It's been on github for over a month - https://github.com/VOREStation/VOREStation/issues/3543

I still think we should go back to "One click, one injection, 5u each" and just give the syringes a 'grace period' before they start causing infection risks, allowing you to inject the same person with one syringe a few times. Because, even though I generally don't mind this change, using several syringes for each patient can get annoying as fuck.

It also stops the syringes from screwing up things like injecting into a beaker, injecting into a spectrometer, injecting into slime cores, etc.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby LiquidFirefly » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:40 pm

James Holder wrote:I actually like the disposable syringes, because using the same needle over and over until it breaks is just weird.

James Holder wrote:I've been playing less, and I get a mk2 hypospray as CMO.


Just gonna link those two a little bit. Just speculation.

James Holder wrote:Also, maybe put a couple mk1 hyposprays in the SAR lockers. It's easy to go through 2 syringe cases out there, and needing to carry an entire box and leave a trail of needles in your wake is just silly.


So, your proposition is to make specific people ignore the change altogether to make the change more bearable?

Wickedtemp wrote: I like the change, overall. When it was added initially, I hated it because it meant having to either take everything out of my medical webbing and replacing it with syringes or carrying around a full of them. When syringe cases were added, I enjoyed it. I feel like they should have been added with the change in the first place.


As much as I respect you, I'm going to dissect this, mostly to talk about syringe cases as a concept. They're pointless gadgets to make the change seem better, but ultimately just mitigates some of the damage. They still take up a slot that a better more RP relevant item could be taking up. They still add tedium to using syringes anywhere but medbay, as there's a real risk that you could run out if you don't carry a massive box. Even then, you still have to constantly go through the tedious task of refilling it if you're injecting things frequently. It's not fun to work around the unnecessary change.

Wickedtemp wrote: As far as avoiding infections, it isn't that hard. I've literally never given someone an infection from syringes, and I can find the data to prove it. Just don't be stupid and you'll never cause an infection.


Yes, hello Tempest, god of medical bay, writer of guides, destroyer of wounds. I'm glad to hear that you've never messed up the easy thing (The easy thing that shouldn't exist). Not everyone is so lucky.
Last edited by LiquidFirefly on Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion: Reusable/Disposable Syringes

Postby DrYeehaw » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:12 pm

Dhaeleena wrote:"without a shadow of a doubt it's more realistic"

Absolutely nowhere in hell it is more realistic. Injecting someone with a needle and having full body gangrene ten minutes later is not realistic, If we go to the point of realism you would have to sterilize the skin with iodine first and IN REAL LIFE doctors may have to stab you multiple times with a needle if they cant find the vein. This has happened to me when i had to get a full blood exam, Its not something out of the ordinary. Not to mention how space man have literally no immune system and cant fight back against the weakest of infections like any normal body would.



That's completely a fair point and I should clarify. It does solve the issue of people using the same needle like a heroin party taking place in the dumpster behind an abandoned Chevron Station in St. Louis, but you're correct. The station has the introduction of mega space AIDS and it's deadly.


....Being honest I realize I've had docs stab me with the same needle on multiple occasions, but that was what I brought up in needing to be fixed for me to be "okay" with this.

Still support it's removal, in fact a little more so now.
Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said..."I'm too drunk to taste this chicken."
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