[Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

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[Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Wickedtemp » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:46 pm

This was originally discussed on this Polaris thread: https://forum.ss13polaris.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=364

The operation would be relatively short. Open the incision, trauma/burn kit, close incision. Currently, 30-40 damage seems like a decent amount of healing for the operation, but this could be adjusted, since the discussion over this addition was on a server with non-extended game-modes, an emphasis on death, and antagonists that actually want to kill crew and make them stay dead, so that value was chosen with balance in mind tailored to that server in particular. One important thing to note is that it's suggested to be Scalpel, Hemostat, Retractor, Trauma/Burn kit, Cautery. This is the same process for healing liver, appendix, and kidney damage. It's possible this could conflict with the brute/burn heal surgery if it doesn't play well with another identical operation.

So, why is this being suggested? What purpose does it serve?

Currently, the only way to handle severe injuries (100+ damage) is with Chemistry. Trauma and Burn kits only heal 3 damage per use and kickstart regen if the damage is under 50 or 60. Even if this value was changed to allow the regen, it would still be terribly slow, leaving Chemistry as the primary means of handling severe cases. The purpose of this addition is to create a Medical system that's a little more balanced between Chemistry and Surgery. The surgery itself would be the second shortest operation outside of facial reconstruction which has four steps against this one's five. The only other ""operation"" that's shorter is limb amputation/replacement, but since that's literally a one to two step process, it isn't exactly much of an operation. The simplicity of it allows for faster completion, making it about the same speed as Chemistry, depending on which chems you're competing against. To test this, I completed a liver repair surgery, which would take the same amount of time. It was completed in 45 seconds, which amounts to 30-40 damage healed if we went with the initial suggested values. Then, I tested bicaridine on a critical brute patient for 45 seconds. The amount healed was similar, within five damage points, meaning that currently, it's just as effective as Chemistry as it was meant for Chemistry to be better as far as "It's less work."

I'm suggesting it's bumped to 50, since Bicaridine and Kelotane are already readily available if you know how to add carbon and inaprovaline and raid a burn first-aid kit, precisely because it's more work than simply injecting. In addition, I'm suggesting that this work for corpses, but to a lesser extent, healing about 20 damage without being repeatable.

So, what does this provide?
- Patients get treatment options if their case isn't critical. Either an operation or medicine that might take a little longer. If they're critical, you'd likely patch up the brute/burn while operating on whatever else needs fixing, which brings us to,

- Overall, faster trips to Medbay. Instead of having to wait for chems to get rid of that trauma before operating (if we don't, the surgery might fail) we could knock out two stones with one bird and operate to get the damage down, before going on to the fracture/etc.

- If you like surgery and have fun doing it, and the patient's cool with you operating, then you can operate away that 20 brute damage instead of giving them a trauma kit. Doctors can have preferences, too.

- Gives another use for Surgery in general. Right now, let's be honest, it isn't usually all that necessary. The only thing we can't do with chemicals is object removal/placement limb removal/replacement. And sometimes somebody runs around outside and you'd rather fix 200 eye damage with surgery than giving them an overdose of Imidazoline and Peridaxon and babysitting a while.

- A non-chemical alternative to healing damage that's about as fast as the chemical. Given that this is a bit more circumstantial, it should probably be raised to around 50 damage healed per operation so it's slightly faster, given it's more work and can only be done within Medbay whereas chems can be used anywhere.

I don't think Chemistry, or the damage system itself, needs to be touched over this (these were brought up in the discord discussion). But, yeh, comments, questions, concerns, etc.

Edit: Forgot to mention. With an IMS, this becomes an absurdly fast surgery. The reason why I personally don't think it should heal too much more than 60 maximum is due to improved surgical tools existing.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby MaximumOverlizard » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:22 am

I would greatly enjoy my surgical main being used for more than "implants NIFs, cries when carp get harvested to make osteodaxon."

- A non-chemical alternative to healing damage that's about as fast as the chemical. Given that this is a bit more circumstantial, it should probably be raised to around 50 damage healed per operation so it's slightly faster, given it's more work and can only be done within Medbay whereas chems can be used anywhere.

Edit: Forgot to mention. With an IMS, this becomes an absurdly fast surgery. The reason why I personally don't think it should heal too much more than 60 maximum is due to improved surgical tools existing.


I'm tentatively willing to ask, "IS that a huge problem?" You still have to put them unconscious for it, do the surgery prep steps, and have the improved surgery tools, which I'm willing to say counts as EVERYBODY DID THEIR JOBS, GOOD WORK, HERE'S YOUR REWARD, maybe?
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Wickedtemp » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:50 pm

Probably not a huge problem, but having it too high means you'll have an absurdly fast means of healing, which can be seen as another balance issue.

Of course, action, killing and death aren't the intended themes of this server. Vore and roleplaying are. So the medical system doesn't have to necessarily be balanced around those themes.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby LiquidFirefly » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:28 am

Damage surgeries were something I thought existed when I came here. Honestly I see no reason not to have them? They're unbelievably circumstantial and in general are something nice to have that doesn't require too much balance thought past "Once per part, 50-60 dmg". In all reality, chem doesn't need to be nerfed for these to have their uses, as Tempest said. Requiring surgery makes it niche enough.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Wickedtemp » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:53 pm

Alright, thinking:

Scalpel, hemostat, retractor, biopsy scanner, a brute kit/burn kit, cautery.

This'll make surgery a bit more common, so the pain caused by these should be a tad bit lower to let tramadol do the trick. Otherwise, you'll have to knock everybody out and that might get irritating for patients.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Wickedtemp » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:06 pm

https://github.com/PolarisSS13/Polaris/pull/5386/files

Open incision, biopsy scanner, trauma/burn kits until the damage is gone (heals 25 damage per use, can be repeated, I'll test to see its speed compared to chemistry, might be tweaked), close incision.

Can't be done on corpses, worth discussing whether or not we want that. Basically, it'd mean you can defib somebody with obscenely high brute/burn damage by doing the surgery before the defib timer's gone. The trade-off being, surgery takes time, so the corpse would need to be recovered and handled quickly. It isn't like you'd be able to do this for every single corpse. But, it will increase defibs over resleeving, especially when the patient is only 10 damage over the threshold.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Scree » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:19 pm

Honestly, I wouldn't object to surgery to treat/defib people that only just hit the damage threshold, it sounds like the sort of niche that'd make surgery a specific go-to option besides chemistry in that particular case as chemistry would be ineffective.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Wickedtemp » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:30 am

I agree. It'd add a surgery-only niche, and there aren't many of those left that can't also be done by chemistry. I don't think it should be done on corpses on polaris, since they have antags and sometimes those antags kill people and want those people to stay dead.

But, here, well... we don't, and tbh, it'd be super nice for medical. Resleeving is boring as fuck. You click a button on the bioprinter. It prints a body. You put it in cryo, dress it, sleeve mind. That's it. You're done. Didn't even do anything big. It's ICly something nearly anybody can do.

It sucks when someone comes in and they're out of defib range because it means I can't do anything to it. If someone gets above 220 brute on sensors, the priority on body retrieval goes down and the question of whether or not to just leave the body and print a new one to resleeve comes into play. If this was added as an alternative to give defibbing a better shot, then medical should have a bigger incentive to retrieve the corpse, to actually try, because the only thing deciding whether or not that patient can be revived is time. It means a super dead corpse still has a sense of urgency.

I played with the surgery in its current code, it's a bit faster than pre-nerf bicaridine. It's honestly pretty solid. Cryo, of course, is still faster, but this change will definitely mean the medical system isn't chem central anymore. There are honestly times where surgery is better, times chems are better, and times its best used together. I think that's neat.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Scree » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:48 pm

Honestly, my gut feeling says "whichever one is the most difficult to perform should be the method with the most mechanical benefit". Right now, giving someone a pill or injection is an order of magnitude simpler than the effort required to perform literally any kind of surgery, especially given that the only viable location for surgery is the OR, whereas chemicals can be taken on away missions and even administered to people in hardsuits. Sure, making up a batch of Bone Healing Juice might be tricky and time-consuming compared to slapping someone on the op table and setting their leg, but the difference with chemical treatments is that all the effort is front-loaded. Unless there's someone with a broken bone right now there's no urgency in getting it done, you can just mix it up ahead of time.

Hell, some of our more meat-grinder away maps like the old Oblivion battleship were specifically laid out so that there was a medbay, complete with op table, so the away team had a place to fall back to and treat injuries - provided they could reach it in the first place.
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Re: [Medical Suggestion] Brute/Burn Heal Surgeries

Postby Wickedtemp » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:39 am

Okay, so, you're correct in that using a bottle of bicaridine is easier than doing the surgery, but that doesn't mean the chemist has it easy. Unless you have everything memorized and burnt into your muscle memory, you're going to be spending 30-120 minutes in chemistry, depending on how much you stock. If you're going for Osteodaxon - the reagent that heals fractures - then you'll be there longer, because in order to make that, you need carpotoxin or pink slime extract, which requires another grind from Xenobio and it's technically a different reagent than osteodaxon but with an identical effect, so Osteodaxon isn't even something you can make in chemistry without like six carp showing up. So... for that example, you can't really just make it. There are some chems that you're just never going to be able to make due to the required reagents for the recipe not existing in any meaningful amounts with no way to obtain them.

There's a reason so many people dislike Chemistry as a job. It's tedious. It's the same thing over and over. I personally like it that way, and after maining Chemist/CMO for around four years, I have my stock down in roughly ten, twelve minutes. And there should be pros and cons to both Chem and Surgery methods - it's why I like this most recent PR. Oxy and Toxin can still only be healed with chems, brute/burn chems have been slightly nerfed and get a surgery alternative that's better than the chems as far as raw heal-speed goes. Sure, if you're responding to someone who's gotten hurt on a different floor and you give them bicaridine before transit to Medbay, they might be pretty much fine by the time you get there. But if they come in with 60 brute damage, it's up to them, but surgery would be faster. Despite this, there's a benefit to having a Chemist that does their job, it isn't at all made obsolete and surgery is made much more useful, and could stand to be even better if this operation could be done on corpses.

Honestly, if this gets merged, and on this codebase can be done on corpses, the only things I think need to be changed for Medical to be 'correct' in my opinion are:
- Revert the "1 click injects all" for syringes, so you can use them on containers again
- Bring back the multisurgery
- Either revert the syringe infection bit or fix it to not be bad

And... That's all I could think of, Medical will be solid, and hopefully, people will begin playing the department more.
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