[Feedback][Suggestion] Today's changes to powergaming

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[Feedback][Suggestion] Today's changes to powergaming

Postby VerySoft » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:33 am

This is related to the announcement made today about the changes to the skills and powergaming rules.

TL;DR: I think they are too harsh, unfair, and do not address the issues you are probably worried about for the most part. I have what I feel is a more reasonable solution to this issue.

The good:

I think that 3 of the 4 points about not powergaming are good:

Do not powergame
Better known as 'playing to win'. As a security person this can be seen as going out of your way and needlessly endangering others to ‘win against’ criminals. As the station AI exploiting loopholes in your laws to get yourself out of them or getting the person who subverted you into trouble is another way. There is an implicit allowance for lawed characters to ERP. You may create loopholes for this reason only.

While this shares several things in common with other rules, it still is it's own entity. Play to have fun, allow yourself to lose now and again and roll with the blows as it can make things potentially even more interesting.

Identifying Antagonists when you shouldn't be able to is also a violation of this rule


And I think they are decently fine and followable on their own. Most of my feedback is to do with the third point:

Having way too many skills for one character is another example of this. Just because you're the Colony Director and have access to everywhere doesn't mean you should (or can) know how to do all the different jobs.


Too harsh:

Enforcing powergaming rules based on the skill setup is too harsh. The reason being, some people prefer to play only one character, but like to do multiple jobs, possibly even all of them. These rule changes explicitly disallow this kind of situation to happen without a SCA, forcing people to play different characters to play different jobs at the risk of being banned for powergaming. Being that the skill selection is really entirely arbitrary, and that one could learn and be very proficient at any of the jobs in the span of a week, this seems only likely to prevent people from doing what they want, in a time where we already struggle to get people to fill lots of different kinds of positions.

It also raises some really hairy questions for me, such as:

A random NPC predator is rushing you from cargo/the gateway/wherever, you have good reason to believe that you are in danger, and within your grasp is a gun with ammo already loaded. But you don't have any skill with guns, you work in (most of the jobs that are not security). Are you supposed to miss? Are you even allowed to pick up the gun? Is it powergaming to be successful at defending yourself when as a player, you've done this a million times before?

And:

The SM is delaminating, there's no engineers on station, one very sleepy medical man, and no admins, and it's late at night when the admins are slow to respond. You work in (not engineering) on that character normally, and know that everyone's going to get sick, scenes ruined, shuttles possibly called. Or you could break into engineering and fix it because you know what to do. Would that be allowed? Obviously if there ARE engineers on, then the answer should be no. But is it powergaming if it saves the round from accidents that otherwise might not be fixxed, just because you lack the arbitrary skill points in your character profile?

This seems to have been made with the idea in mind that one character shouldn't be capable of doing any job, and enforcing that via threat of bans, rather than mechanics.

It seems to me that one who prefers to play one character would be a lot more likely to just stick with that character over playing in an unfamiliar department if they know they aren't allowed to be skilled in that department.

Unfair:

This is the main one I have an issue with, and it relates to the end of the previous point.

Do not powergame

Having way too many skills for one character is another example of this. Just because you're the Colony Director and have access to everywhere doesn't mean you should (or can) know how to do all the different jobs.


You should avoid characters who know too many skills, as they are considered not believable, and even potentially powergaming which explicitly violates the server's rules.


Characters who are new to the server should try to stay around "Average" or less based on a skill set. "Above Average" is okay if your character only specializes in one particular job (such as a Head of Staff).
Characters who have been present on the station for at least a month are safer to have an "Above Average" skill set, because they have probably picked up a few new skills while working.
Characters who have been present on the station for multiple real-life years can have a skill set up to "Exceptional" without many problems. A year is a very long time. Chances are you know at least the very basics of most departments, or have been trained by other staff to do different jobs.


This selection specifically outlines that people who have played a character longer on the server are allowed to know how to do more things than characters/people who are new, to the tune of a year.

This does not reflect the actual learning curve of the game well at all, and I know it's not meant to. However, this is specifically outlining that people who have been around longer are allowed to have access to more on one character, for no better reason than they've been around longer. And again, at the risk of being accused of and punished for powergaming.

Where I know that I at the very least play some of my characters across multiple stations. Details are always a little fuzzy to account for different servers having different mechanics, but the characters remain the same. Now obviously I don't expect the Virgo station to hold all that as cannon, but it does represent a character with existing experience, and as such, a justifiable reason for a new character to have more experience than 'above-average' when new to Virgo stations. I do not believe that I am unique in doing this, and even if I am, with an appropriately thought out backstory, why shouldn't a new character be allowed to have the skills to go with it, when the only difference is actual time played with that character on station.

It also brings to light an interesting question: If the skills system is meant to represent one character's understanding of the jobs they do/have done, you only ever play one character, and you are able to master all of the jobs to a far above average degree as that one character, so that your learning and the character's learning are the same, why would it be unrealistic for that one character's skills to reflect their mastery in all they have learned on the station?

The answer to that I'm sure has largely to do with the fact that such would be exceedingly unlikely to happen in real life, so is unrealistic to see on station. And in general I agree. But, I think the solution I have at the end better addresses this question, and allows for it to be valid at the same time.

Doesn't address the issues:

Why is the skill screen needed at all for enforcing powergaming rules? It needlessly boxxes people into playing at specific things with a specific character all the time, and can be easily be swapped at a moments notice to reflect a different set of skills for the purpose of doing a different job, to powergame those rules. It sounds like you want to prevent people from being able to do anything as any given character, when this I don't think actually addresses that issue, it only adds more steps to do it within the bounds of the rules.

When again, we already struggle to get people to fill out roles sometimes. Enforcing the skill page with threat of admin action seems likely to get people who prefer to play one character to either, game the skills page depending on what they want to do, have them play only their familiar jobs, or keep them from participating in jobs for fear of potential admin action if they step out of line.

Obviously that last bit is a little extreme, I know some of you admin guys, you're pretty cool for the most part. I have however seen and experienced some of your different attitudes and experience levels with the game. And it is one thing I worry about with these rule changes, using something arbitrary that one might not even think about as a reason for administrative action. I could see this applied inconsistently with favoritism toward friends/old guard, while being enforced heavily on new players/characters to the server who aren't necessarily inexperienced with the game. And even if it's not applied inconsistently, the way it's worded, it's one of the first things that came to my mind when I read it, and I tend to view the admins of virgo favorably.

From a player standpoint, it doesn't look good. And I think it could affect people's attitudes toward jobs poorly, when too often already there's no one in security, no one in engineering, and only one or two people in medical. People need more incentives to play the jobs, not to have to worry about admin action for doing a job and having the wrong skills for it.

An alternate solution: I've written a fair bit here, so I'll cut to the chase

I suggest changing the third point:
Having way too many skills for one character is another example of this. Just because you're the Colony Director and have access to everywhere doesn't mean you should (or can) know how to do all the different jobs.


To something along the lines of: Act realistically within the intended skills and means of your job and/or orders. Do not do other department's jobs if there are members of that department present.

This wording is likely not perfect of course, but it is more clear, more flexible, and more robust in its coverage than relying on the skill page. It also doesn't in any obvious way favor those characters/players/friends who have been around longer. Wording like that sets no explicitly clear definition on what is and isn't allowed at any given time, but I feel helps set the spirit of the rule. It also eludes to another rule:

You are expected to perform the job you signed up for


Rather than relying exclusively on the skill system to determine who's capable of what, it should be assumed that one who takes a job has at least the basic knowhow to do that job, or at least clearance to learn/practice it on station. After all, any character can do any job provided they are 25 or above years.

A medical man breaking into science/security for guns when cargo orders predator crates, when not under orders to do so, is an obvious powergamer. Acting outside of what I would call realistic skill and means, even if he's a science/engineering regular on other shifts.

The same medical man picking up a gun off of a fallen security officer when a monster from cargo comes rushing down the hall to defend themselves, despite never having fired a gun before in their life, is not. He has reason to be there, and has reason and means to fight.

The skill screen I feel should be utilized in the same way as the different records. You can fill them out to deepen what people can learn about you, but they shouldn't be required of you. (I'd prefer if they were reinforced by mechanics, and persistent things you built up with experience across multiple rounds, but that's another idea for another topic)
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Re: [Feedback][Suggestion] Today's changes to powergaming

Postby VerySoft » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:35 am

Also it's late, I apologize if this came off as especially rambly, as I tend to ramble when I'm sleepy. x.x
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Re: [Feedback][Suggestion] Today's changes to powergaming

Postby Mr_Signmeup » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:28 am

My understanding of the powergaming rules are that they are there to ensure that everyone gets a chance to do their job. It is not fun when you signed up to do a job only to have someone come in from a completely different department to do it. A call for medical to someone injured in the triage treatment on the base. You rush down there as quickly as you can to find the place has been broken into by an engineer who has an extensive knowledge on how medical equipment works, can understand the body scanner's 'print out' and is currently in the process of mixing up a batch of chemicals to ensure that the person in question is a hundred percent healthy.

As an extreme example as that is, it would definitely take the wind out of you and make you extremely pissed off. How does an engineer know how to perform medical procedures when ICly they spent their time in college studying electrical engineering? Game mechanics are made easy for you, the player, to understand. In the world of SS13, things would be much, much more complicated. You should not be playing the game to be everyone's hero in their story or to save the station and be praised for scouring through maintenance after getting one single report about a red-suited individual stalking around maintenence, where you promptly ensured you had the best armour and weaponry available at that moment to kill the antag.

You should not think of it as inhibiting your ability to play as your characters but as the potential to craft something new.

Your example of someone in cargo/gateway/where-ever being ambushed by a NPC predator but they have no proper weapon training? You could pick up the weapon and defend yourself or you could run away... or you could let yourself get attacked and eaten. Hey. It's up to you. I ain't going to scream at you about defending yourself with a firearm despite your skills saying untrained in firearms. However, you should focus on always being in character, at all times, even in dangerous situations. Think about how your character would react and react in that fashion, would they fire wildly in a vain hopes of killing the monster? Would they run and attempt to hide in a locker? Or would they just be too scared to move and find themselves being eaten alive in one gulp! Whatever you choose can add to someone else's story. If you do get viciously mauled, a paramedic gets a chance to do their job and rescue you. Boom. History in the making. Potential scene, perhaps, no?

Think outside the box. Do not see this as limiting but see this as possibilities. As a challenge that you and others will need to work around. Taking the easy route will get boring, stale and repetitive. Think like the character. Act like the character. Scenes are there, ready to be crafted due to characters being unskilled in some areas but skilled in others. Working together. That is what SS13 is all about. Working together and if one person does it all, it ain't fun. If one person could do everything on the station. Nanotrasen would just hire a handful of those guys and shorten their staff.


I ramble on myself when it is bed-time
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Re: [Feedback][Suggestion] Today's changes to powergaming

Postby Aces » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:57 am

The fundamental misunderstanding is that the rules have changed. They have not changed regarding this topic. I merely elaborated the original rule, and when doing that, I also pointed people to the in-game tool that has always existed for the purpose of helping to avoid powergaming characters.

There's literally no way for me to enforce your character points. It just a tool to help prevent players ever being accused of powergaming to begin with.

In fact, the official server rules do not even mention character points. This is completely intentional.
https://wiki.vore-station.net/Rules#Do_not_powergame

The only reference to them is in a separate guide.
https://wiki.vore-station.net/Character ... _of_skills
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