Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby orbisa » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:52 am

The thing about no fun allowed sec is that the station will really turn into no fun, since most of the crooks players will just go "ah? two hours out of the game, fuck that, I rather play security and arrest the ass that arrested me"
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Gramzon_the_Dragon » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:46 am

What is one supposed to do if their HoS goes "no fun allowed" and forbids you from even playing pred sec? I've been told off IC by a HoS after trying to belly brig a player and having the captain come in to break it up. "We have functioning brig cells, I don't want you eating any crewmembers"
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Wickedtemp » Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:11 pm

Aces wrote:
Wickedtemp wrote:You'd need to keep tabs on Security to actually ensure they do the job. There was one scenario where an officer searched through Medbay because a pizza was stolen, but ignored legitimate crime issues later on like trespassing, vandalism, etc.

I think it'd be fun to do, it could give Security an actual purpose (since there's so many OOC rules like "Don't intervene unless the victim explicitly requests aid." and the like).

But my concern is that it could be used as an excuse to just be a chucklefuck. If someone thinks it's fun to steal the surgical tools and other important medical equipment every other round, there will be an issue. I don't mind conflict, but I don't play on VS for a round of "traitor". So if people start doing some real antaggy shit and people die regularly as a result, the game might be more fun for them, but less fun for Medical (for me, anyways), because it's difficult to have a scene when there are people hurting each other and needing to be cloned.

So... Sure. Petty theft, fine. Even trying to steal some real important shit every now and then, go for it. As long as it doesn't cause disruptions every shift, I don't particularly mind.

I'm curious, however, about how it would effect the reputations of crew that are thought to be in the Guild, or have been proven to be involved in an organized station-wide crime organization. It would make sense to bar them from joining as Security to prevent meta-collaboration to flood Security with corrupt individuals just so their crime spree becomes inevitable. And I know that you can't have any real IC consequences for stuff you did in a previous shift, but would that change for characters who make "Is a member of an underground crime organization" a part of their character?

... I want to see something like this, but I'm just worried that like... I'm here, thinking that a wave or two in the calm ocean would be beneficial, but I'm dreading the fact that while a wave would be great, we'll be given a tsunami instead. I'm worried that a possibly fun idea will end up being much heavier than intended, instead of "theives guild" it becomes "super edgey dark brotherhood in space".

And yeah, a part of this is just me being overly-cautious. But given how there's already a fairly consistent level of petty crime that goes on (Security is just too busy with scenes or they don't think it's worth doing anything about it) I'm not entirely sure this would actually do more good than harm... So I guess a "trial run" at the very least would be warranted. Give it a shot and we'll see where it goes.


The only requirement to having a crooked character is to have some allusions to it in your character's employment and security records. For my character Jarome it straight up states he used to be a pirate leader and was imprisoned for five years. Security is explicitly told to keep an eye on him. These individuals wouldn't be trusted to join security so I'd invoke the "No unrealistic characters" rule because that'd be bullshit joining as security. On the other hand, convincing a security to become corrupt mid-shift is acceptable. But if it becomes a repeating theme, they should stop playing security out of fairness.

I've already done trial runs for this before. Lately Security has been making bullshit charges though. Someone tried to charge grand theft over a fucking stun baton.


Okay, so they'd be required to be hinted at in the Employment and Security records. As CMO, if Tempest sees someone in Medical doing something illegal like...maybe stealing something bigger than a pen but not as serious as stealing a baton, kinda like a "medium severity" thing, normally shi'd get irritated but shi wouldn't fire them unless they do it again.

However if someone were to do something illegal and shi looks at their employment records and sees "Hint-hint at crime organization" then shi's much more likely to fire them on their first 'offense'.

Personally I find that to be reasonable, an employer doesn't want a law-breaker in their department, especially one that gives them access to things like napalm, bone-saws, and stupidly easy ways to kill people. "Someone's injured, they need surgery, I'll take care of it." *make several incisions, let them bleed out, cauterize in the OR* "Aw, man, I couldn't save them. Bummer." So... I find it reasonable. But I want to know your thoughts on it.

Basically it's "Doctor does illegal thing, no real harm done, is given a warning." vs "Doctor does illegal thing, no real harm done, CMO sees hints at a crime ring in employment records, fires doctor."

Would that be reasonable?

Also, what about characters that have been caught? From then on, everyone will know they're in the crime ring if the news gets out. I understand that you can't really do anything about past shifts, but you'd still have a well-known, actively-doing-illegal-shit criminal onboard. Would it be fair to keep a closer eye on them?
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Gramzon_the_Dragon » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:13 pm

Wickedtemp wrote:
Aces wrote:
Wickedtemp wrote:You'd need to keep tabs on Security to actually ensure they do the job. There was one scenario where an officer searched through Medbay because a pizza was stolen, but ignored legitimate crime issues later on like trespassing, vandalism, etc.

I think it'd be fun to do, it could give Security an actual purpose (since there's so many OOC rules like "Don't intervene unless the victim explicitly requests aid." and the like).

But my concern is that it could be used as an excuse to just be a chucklefuck. If someone thinks it's fun to steal the surgical tools and other important medical equipment every other round, there will be an issue. I don't mind conflict, but I don't play on VS for a round of "traitor". So if people start doing some real antaggy shit and people die regularly as a result, the game might be more fun for them, but less fun for Medical (for me, anyways), because it's difficult to have a scene when there are people hurting each other and needing to be cloned.

So... Sure. Petty theft, fine. Even trying to steal some real important shit every now and then, go for it. As long as it doesn't cause disruptions every shift, I don't particularly mind.

I'm curious, however, about how it would effect the reputations of crew that are thought to be in the Guild, or have been proven to be involved in an organized station-wide crime organization. It would make sense to bar them from joining as Security to prevent meta-collaboration to flood Security with corrupt individuals just so their crime spree becomes inevitable. And I know that you can't have any real IC consequences for stuff you did in a previous shift, but would that change for characters who make "Is a member of an underground crime organization" a part of their character?

... I want to see something like this, but I'm just worried that like... I'm here, thinking that a wave or two in the calm ocean would be beneficial, but I'm dreading the fact that while a wave would be great, we'll be given a tsunami instead. I'm worried that a possibly fun idea will end up being much heavier than intended, instead of "theives guild" it becomes "super edgey dark brotherhood in space".

And yeah, a part of this is just me being overly-cautious. But given how there's already a fairly consistent level of petty crime that goes on (Security is just too busy with scenes or they don't think it's worth doing anything about it) I'm not entirely sure this would actually do more good than harm... So I guess a "trial run" at the very least would be warranted. Give it a shot and we'll see where it goes.


The only requirement to having a crooked character is to have some allusions to it in your character's employment and security records. For my character Jarome it straight up states he used to be a pirate leader and was imprisoned for five years. Security is explicitly told to keep an eye on him. These individuals wouldn't be trusted to join security so I'd invoke the "No unrealistic characters" rule because that'd be bullshit joining as security. On the other hand, convincing a security to become corrupt mid-shift is acceptable. But if it becomes a repeating theme, they should stop playing security out of fairness.

I've already done trial runs for this before. Lately Security has been making bullshit charges though. Someone tried to charge grand theft over a fucking stun baton.


Okay, so they'd be required to be hinted at in the Employment and Security records. As CMO, if Tempest sees someone in Medical doing something illegal like...maybe stealing something bigger than a pen but not as serious as stealing a baton, kinda like a "medium severity" thing, normally shi'd get irritated but shi wouldn't fire them unless they do it again.

However if someone were to do something illegal and shi looks at their employment records and sees "Hint-hint at crime organization" then shi's much more likely to fire them on their first 'offense'.

Personally I find that to be reasonable, an employer doesn't want a law-breaker in their department, especially one that gives them access to things like napalm, bone-saws, and stupidly easy ways to kill people. "Someone's injured, they need surgery, I'll take care of it." *make several incisions, let them bleed out, cauterize in the OR* "Aw, man, I couldn't save them. Bummer." So... I find it reasonable. But I want to know your thoughts on it.

Basically it's "Doctor does illegal thing, no real harm done, is given a warning." vs "Doctor does illegal thing, no real harm done, CMO sees hints at a crime ring in employment records, fires doctor."

Would that be reasonable?

Also, what about characters that have been caught? From then on, everyone will know they're in the crime ring if the news gets out. I understand that you can't really do anything about past shifts, but you'd still have a well-known, actively-doing-illegal-shit criminal onboard. Would it be fair to keep a closer eye on them?


I think the point here is to put things like "Has been caught making illegal drugs", "Has been known to break into other departments", "Frequently attempts to steal small items of moderate value". Not "We know there is a crime ring on station and this person is a part of that, FIRE AT FIRST SIGN OF TROUBLE!" It would just warrant keeping a closer eye on the person in general and being ready to have security respond. Generally people shouldn't be demoted for something like 1 instance of petty theft. There's a reason it's considered a minor crime and why you can just pay a small fine to avoid brig time. The corporate regulations penalties are the intended punishments, so going about firing people on top of their actual sentence is kinda overkill because security are the ones who are supposed to be rounding up and punishing criminals, not the RD, CMO, or CE. Getting demoted to assistant for trying to spice up the round is pretty cruel OOC, because now the person has a lot less to do.

However! There are times it can be justified. If the suspect committed more than one crime in the same shift and/or was hurting the functionality of the department and/or commited a major crime like first degree murder, then yes a demotion would be something to consider, and perhaps something to bring up with your local HoP for a second opinion. A HoP should be the most knowledgeable on how to manage crew and when firing is a good idea, so asking for his or her help is a good idea. If the suspicious employee was deliberately performing their job poorly or using tools granted by their position to commit crimes, it makes demotion more justified. For example, making drugs is bad and the criminal should get their sentence, but stealing the syringe gun and making a ton of lethal syringes may send up flags that this person isn't in medbay with the intent to cure people, and makes them more of a hindrance than an asset.
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Wickedtemp » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:27 pm

Well of course the employment/sec records aren't going to come out and say that they're a part of a crime ring. And I wouldn't fire someone from a department for a single instance of petty theft under normal circumstances.

One incident of stealing low-medium value stuff? No.
Constant illegal behavior? Yes.

But the thing is, listing it on employment/sec records means that their illegal activities aren't an isolated event, they have a known record. If they steal something and get caught, (emphasis on get caught) then it wouldn't ICly be their first offense. They likely wouldn't be trusted to do anything but Civilian jobs. Probably not an Assistant, since that'd ruin their fun. Gardener/Chef/Barkeep/Cargo would likely be fine, and I would think ordering their sensors set to "Tracking" would also be warranted.

They made a character with a backstory shrouded in mystery/illegal activities. They then continue to commit legal offenses, showing everybody that they likely haven't changed at all, they're still a criminal. They made a character for the purpose of doing minor-antaggy things. A criminal isn't going to be trusted with surgical equipment or chemistry, they wouldn't be trusted with the well-being of a patient in need of care. They wouldn't be trusted in the Medical, Security, or Command departments at the least. Science/Engineering would be iffy, their only real chance of a job (after making themselves known as a regular criminal) would be Civilian.

I'm not talking about a random character that stole something one time. This is about the characters that will be a part of the crime ring, that steal commit legal offenses on a regular basis. There has to be a legitimate IC consequence. Because let's face it, brig time that's less than half an hour isn't really that big of a deal. You're in, you're out, then it's business as usual. There's no consequence, there's no change. Being demoted from a surgeon to a cargo tech, however, is. It actually affects the character.

On the other end of the coin, depending on what the antag does, they could cause a LOT of problems for very little consequence. Stealing bone gel for example. I don't think it can be produced on-station, it has to be ordered from Cargo. I MIGHT be wrong, if I am, let me know, but if I remember right it can only be ordered from cargo.

Antag steals the bone gel and hides it for recovery later. If they get caught, it's probably no more than 15 minutes in the brig, max. If they don't get caught, no consequence.

For Medical, though? Fractures, groin/head/chest internal bleeding, shrapnel, implants and organ damage won't get fixed. If cargo isn't active, they're shafted. Not to mention that it'd just kill the mood to be in the middle of a scene only to hear "Somebody stole all the surgical equipment!" over Comms.

Again, I'm fine with a little bit of conflict every now and then. The events with the gateway missions and Xenos tend to be rather fun. But I play on VS to have a relaxing-ish round and ERP a bit, not to play Cops and Robbers. Security sometimes has PLENTY to do, it's just petty stuff like battery, minor theft, neglect of duty, harassment and the like, and they just don't feel like stopping it. And I know I probably might be sounding like a "No Fun Allowed" jerk right now, but more or less the same thing happened on Bay12 when they added in Vox.

People would use "I'm a Vox." as an excuse to do illegal shit and cause trouble all the time. For some people, Vox was the same as an Antag, and for a time they were played as antags until the novelty wore off and those players went back to their normal characters. And I'm worried that the same will happen here, people will take it too far because "I'm secretly an antag!"

So... If there's like... A "Thieves Guild Code of Conduct" or something to limit mindless, borderline-griefing actions, I think it could work out. Something to ensure that, most of the time, things don't go overboard, because that's my primary concern here. I'd prefer not to have a peaceful round or a scene I'm in constantly interrupted because a guy is basically going full traitor because "lol, theeves guild!"

Rules like... Don't steal something if, by doing so, someone could come to harm. We're theives, not brutes. "We steal objects, not lives."

Like the Skyrim Thieves Guild. Exploitable info, bribery, anything but actually hurting someone.
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Scree » Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:41 pm

Gramzon_the_Dragon wrote:What is one supposed to do if their HoS goes "no fun allowed" and forbids you from even playing pred sec? I've been told off IC by a HoS after trying to belly brig a player and having the captain come in to break it up. "We have functioning brig cells, I don't want you eating any crewmembers"

If you have logs of who that was, PM them to me.

Because of this.

If you're in a head role, try not to be a busybody to the point where it stifles the ability of other players to enjoy themselves. For instance, if two players joined as cargo techs in order to play with each other, the HoP or QM should think twice before ordering one of them to go mining - after all, if they wanted to mine, they'd have joined as a shaft miner. Likewise, ordering a lockdown on an area for no good reason, instructing someone to stand in a corner or be at their desk at all times even when nothing is happening, or otherwise flexing your authority in a way that renders other players unable to enjoy the game is frowned upon. Again, it's going out of your way to interfere that's the important part.

(not that page isn't rules per se, but general advice and long-winded clarification on how not to make other players annoyed with you)
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Wickedtemp » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:58 pm

Scree wrote:
Gramzon_the_Dragon wrote:What is one supposed to do if their HoS goes "no fun allowed" and forbids you from even playing pred sec? I've been told off IC by a HoS after trying to belly brig a player and having the captain come in to break it up. "We have functioning brig cells, I don't want you eating any crewmembers"

If you have logs of who that was, PM them to me.

Because of this.

If you're in a head role, try not to be a busybody to the point where it stifles the ability of other players to enjoy themselves. For instance, if two players joined as cargo techs in order to play with each other, the HoP or QM should think twice before ordering one of them to go mining - after all, if they wanted to mine, they'd have joined as a shaft miner. Likewise, ordering a lockdown on an area for no good reason, instructing someone to stand in a corner or be at their desk at all times even when nothing is happening, or otherwise flexing your authority in a way that renders other players unable to enjoy the game is frowned upon. Again, it's going out of your way to interfere that's the important part.

(not that page isn't rules per se, but general advice and long-winded clarification on how not to make other players annoyed with you)



Quick question about this. I'll be using Medical as an example because it's just what I'm most familiar with.

Say that someone joins as a Chemist and completely neglects their job. Chances are they're in a scene and they joined as Medical to get easy access to the private sub-acutes, psychiatrist's office (both have tinted windows) and easy access to soporific and a syringe gun, chloral injectors, excellent "pred" gear for catching prey. Would it be wrong to tell them to actually do their assigned job? OOCly they're likely just in a scene and may have joined Medical purely for the benefits it has, but ICly, they're a Chemist who just isn't doing their job, at all. So, there's this, https://wiki.vore-station.net/Rules#Do_ ... _scenes.21 and I think the main quote here is:
For example: An Engineer who doesn't start the engine or set up solars and instead runs straight to the bar for scene hunting is probably breaking this rule. On the other hand, if you got ambushed and ate before finishing your job, then that's just life on VORE and everyone will have to live without power for a bit.


So... Which one takes priority? "Don't be a busybody." or "Do your job at least a bit before running off to do a scene." ?

Again, I use Medical and Chemistry as the example here because that's what I'm most familiar with, that's what I see most of. When I see a Chemist on the manifest, it's normally safe to assume that they've done little to nothing and they're pretty much just playing their role as an Assistant with access to Medbay. It might just be a pet peeve of mine, but since there's only two Chemist slots (and ONE Geneticist slot if I'm not mistaken, if I am, please correct me) then it takes up the job from someone who might actually be wanting to do the job.

So, my question in a sentence: You're the CMO, you see a Chemist on the manifest that's done very, very little work because they ran off to do a scene after making one or two bottles of Tricord, and this is a consistent trait with the Chemist in question. What do?
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Gramzon_the_Dragon » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:09 pm

Wickedtemp wrote:-snip- because the qoute is getting long.
So, my question in a sentence: You're the CMO, you see a Chemist on the manifest that's done very, very little work because they ran off to do a scene after making one or two bottles of Tricord, and this is a consistent trait with the Chemist in question. What do?

It would be something to report them for as per https://wiki.vore-station.net/Rules#Do_ ... _scenes.21
"If you habitually join as jobs beside assistant and don't perform your job's most basic functions, you'll get job banned because it hogs the slot from people who actually want to do the job."


Generally as a chemist I think one should get the 4 basic medicines (Bicaridine, Dermaline, Dexalin plus, Dylovene) and hopefully some cryoxadone mix before running off for a scene unless they got kidnapped by a pred beforehand. Maybe mixing some Peridaxon if no surgeon is available. Most of the other medicines are situational and can be mixed before adminsitering. Or if a patient is in critical health, the cyro pods can keep them alive long enough for the needed strange meds to be mxed
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby Wickedtemp » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:48 pm

Gramzon_the_Dragon wrote:
Wickedtemp wrote:-snip- because the qoute is getting long.
So, my question in a sentence: You're the CMO, you see a Chemist on the manifest that's done very, very little work because they ran off to do a scene after making one or two bottles of Tricord, and this is a consistent trait with the Chemist in question. What do?

It would be something to report them for as per https://wiki.vore-station.net/Rules#Do_ ... _scenes.21
"If you habitually join as jobs beside assistant and don't perform your job's most basic functions, you'll get job banned because it hogs the slot from people who actually want to do the job."


Generally as a chemist I think one should get the 4 basic medicines (Bicaridine, Dermaline, Dexalin plus, Dylovene) and hopefully some cryoxadone mix before running off for a scene unless they got kidnapped by a pred beforehand. Maybe mixing some Peridaxon if no surgeon is available. Most of the other medicines are situational and can be mixed before adminsitering. Or if a patient is in critical health, the cyro pods can keep them alive long enough for the needed strange meds to be mxed


Yeah, like.. 2-4 bottles of Bicaridine, Dermaline (or KeloDerm), Dexalin Plus, Tramadol... Even just 1-2 bottles of Peridaxon would be insanely useful. And dylovene doesn't even need to be made since there's close to 16 bottles in the vendors around Medbay. Also just adding a bit of clonexadone to the cryox beakers by the cryo-cells is a great help... All together, that would take around... Maybe ten minutes? Probably less.
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Re: Criminals of V.O.R.E., unite!

Postby SilverTalismen » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:49 am

Can my character Temmie join this thieves guild as a fence? :D [ obilvion thieves guild person who buys stolen stuff]
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