Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby TheDavestDave » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:07 am

How is merging access not a fix? Its let's pilots go bitch please when we get more eltists exploration teams and let all the people who swap between pilot and explorer do the job along as they have the people.
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby Sebbe » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:06 am

TheDavestDave wrote:How is merging access not a fix? Its let's pilots go bitch please when we get more eltists exploration teams and let all the people who swap between pilot and explorer do the job along as they have the people.


I have no idea what you wrote past the elitist exploration teams part but I totally agree with you, merging access is kinda dumb, Pilots lose any status of having a skill others don't AND they no longer get a say in what the shuttle gets used for or not.

If anything merging access will just create speedrunning elitists when they show up that wait the minimum required time and speed off to do all the exploration stuff.

I really, honestly have no idea why we are trying to remove roleplay from the server, and especially pilots and the restriction on the shuttle when the gateway is access locked to the PF which imo is a muuuuch bigger issue on it's own as the gateway cannot be destroyed, can always be repowered and does not require any skill at all to use.
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby DegenerateCain » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:44 am

I believe there's a big issue with merging the access together;

Explorer isn't a timelocked job, meaning as Resh said, any tom, dick or harry could quite easily join the server for the first time and chucklefuck off with the shuttle; As proved by the first few weeks of Overmap being added (and OP meteor showers), it does take some knowledge in order to fly the ships, lest you be stranded in space because you didn't pack enough fuel or you decide going mach 10 in a meteor shower is a good idea because you've no idea what you're doing.

I think them being separated is the best choice, but even then the PF and FM still have pilot access; It's not like there's any shortage it, changing it just makes it so that a few explorers can decide to unga off station regardless of whether or not they know how the atmospherics of the shuttle works, how the scanners work, how the overmap works, how the fuel systems work... And it'll likely lead to a lot more accidents in space itself.

TL;DR:
Giving newbs and ungas access to over atmos/overmap and etc doesn't sound responsible, allowing/expecting explorers to know all that seems to promote powergaming, stifle roleplaying and it's bound to end in a lot more space debris rather than if there's someone who dedicates themselves to the role, how it works, and roleplays it as such.


If for some reason the pilot role is removed then I'd propose a few changes;
- More subspace radios, maybe two; one for the Expedition and one for the medical shuttle and any others added, removing the one in the PF office.
- Give Science their own shuttle/belts to work with so they don't have to rely on Virgo 3b's limited anomalies or begging exploration to tag along
- If you're gonna remove pilots, you may as well remove FMs, as they're just Paramedics with Exploration and Pilot access.
- Stop focusing on Exploration for all of the changes, other departments need love too!~

Just my two cents.
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby nerdass » Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:53 am

Lol they can already do that by joining as pilot what's your point
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby TheDavestDave » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:03 am

It's reading to me as we can't trust explorers not to meta knowledge.

Wicth has much bigger implications than why the pilot console is access locked.

Oh and only a few people know how to pilot as players not characters. That last one needs fixed quickly
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby DegenerateCain » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:45 am

When you join as a pilot you've something expected of you, to be able to know how to fly; I'm pretty sure I made it clear that piloting itself takes at least some knowledge of mechanics to get the ship running and functioning.;

When you join as an explorer you normally just unga, scan and listen to the PF.

If it was still just few clicks to get anywhere I'd understand this merge and removing the pilot role but with the added difficulty now I just think it's unwise.

Perhaps evolving the pilot role with alt titles rather than removing and replacing them with such, and letting a pilot decide which department they'd like to work, since it's meant to be a more civilian role and restricting the exploration shuttle to PF and FMs ...or a pilot. Then of course Security can get their own.

I disagree with letting every explorer, potentially their first day on station, have free reign over the shuttle and its phoron canister filled innards.

I suppose my point is I believe that instead of removing the pilot role and letting any unga access it, you should adapt it instead.

Love 'em
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby Scree » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:10 pm

Personally, I see pilots as being in the same place as chemists in relation to medbay (thanks to thedavestdave for bringing up this comparison in the github chat).

And by that, I mean it's fine for flying the shuttle to be "their job". As in, if a shuttle needs flying and there's a pilot around, then it's the pilot's job.
HOWEVER, if the pilot is not around, or is unavailable, or eaten, or just didn't join that shift, or is flying the shuttle for a different department and despite there being spare slots nobody's joining as the third pilot because they can already see two on the manifest and they just assume that three departments are unlikely to need a shuttle at once (which may well be true 95% of the time), then it's not fine for other players to be locked out of playing the game as a result.

There's precedent for this - the excursion shuttle can already be flown by the pathfinder, so while it's preferable that the pilot flies it, the exploration department isn't forced to grind to a standstill and wait, hoping that a pilot will arrive to allow them to do their jobs. If the PF doesn't want to do it themselves, they can designate a pilot among the explorers and give them a guest pass. This is fine, and it's exactly the place where any departmental shuttles should be in my opinion.

Maybe the basic rank and file of a given department shouldn't have pilot access to stop some day 0 fucking off with the shuttle and crashing it at roundstart, there's also precedent for this with explorers. Heads though? It kinda goes without saying that the head of a department should be able to access (or give access to) all the resources of that department, including shuttles, and we have an existing requirement for head players to be at least semi-competent.

As for "what does the pilot do if a department doesn't need them", that's what the tour bus is for. That's the pilot's shuttle. I don't see any advantage to adding a bazillion pilot slots to cover every department when nobody will join as them and not every department will need their shuttle every shift, nor do I see an advantage in making everyone a pilot and spawning arguments over who gets to fly the docwagon that day.
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby TheDavestDave » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:23 pm

ace suggested swapping to some kind of fob key system for flying shuttles.

this would let us keep pilot as is mostly. But we could add an aircraft controler kind of job. In charge of keeping track of who has want key card and giving them out, what shuttle is out. Where it is. Fixing them on return. It'd still be a mostly RP job but it's already more fleashed out than Command Sec.

And unlike my give the explorers pilot access idea, it's a lot more future proof. Any new shuttle doesn't so much need new access, just a new key card colour shoved into the new-ish department.

To make sure there's no misunderstandings, pilots would be expected to have first dibs on flying any shuttle, but this would remove the need for pilots while stopping any Tom Dick or Hary crashing it min 1
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby Scree » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:51 pm

Keyfob works, but so does just giving department heads access_pilot and a guest pass terminal.
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Re: Pilots! Love em' or leave em.

Postby nerdass » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:11 pm

Scree wrote:Keyfob works, but so does just giving department heads access_pilot and a guest pass terminal.


what if they're on the planet so long the guest pass expires, don't those have a time limit?
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